5 ms·

Chinese markets strike me as absolutely brutal. I mean, there is always some theft, fraud etc. in any market (one of the oldest written records of humanity is

Chinese markets strike me as absolutely brutal. I mean, there is always some theft, fraud etc. in any market (one of the oldest written records of humanity is a customer complaint about bad copper sold by a certain Mesopotamian merchant called Ea-nasir in 1750 BC), but stuff like poisoning your customers with Sudan Red, or adding melamine to yoghurt, or frying food on gutter oil seems to always be reported from China.

nigerian1981 5y ago
The fake Chinese eggs were the high point for me
- joeman1000 5y ago
  Just read about those [1]. I was struck that the ingredients were similar to what’s in Gaviscon: - Sodium alginate - Calcium carbonate [1]: https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-a-big-problem-in-india https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-...
  - nigerian1981 5y ago
    You’ve got to admire the ingenuity
azizsaya 5y ago
Same goes with India as well. I have always wondered about this, may be it is the trade-off between getting caught and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass to act in unethical ways.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Interestingly the Germans also found some Sudan dies in spices imported from India. [1] [1] https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >> and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass A very western sentiment. We often deride the quest for profits, demonizing people who put profit ahead of something more noble like safety. But in places like China "profit" is life. China has seen starvation in living memory. In countries without social safety nets a failed business likely means utter destitution, very often leading to physical violence. The people who run restaurants, and certainly the people who work in them, are not chasing profits because they want to drive nice cars. They are chasing profits because they too want to keep eating.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    But doesn't getting caught poisoning customers result in destitution too?
Joeboy 5y ago
I guess it was quite a long time ago now but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_sc...
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Wild. I was a kid in 1985, so not interested in wine yet, though Austria is right next door. There were several recent affairs in Europe with adulteration of suspect booze in the black (or gray) market with methylalcohol. That would fit right in.
Overtonwindow 5y ago
Not just Chinese markets, but Chinese products today, such as the cat food and melamine issue, and baby formula. Consumable Chinese products should have a warning label
gordaco 5y ago
This used to be common in parts of Europe as well. There is a book called From Poison Sweets to Counterfeit Coffee—The Dark History of the Food Cheats, from the food journalist Bee Wilson [1], which tells (among many other things) a lot of stories about arsenic poisonings in 19th century London, caused by the usage of certain red dyes in food. The saying that certain regulations are written in blood comes from these kinds of stories. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2507738.Swindled https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2507738.Swindled
- unsignedchar 5y ago
  Yes there was an extract in NYT comparting the issues with baby formula in 2008 China with 1850s New York https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/opinion/30wilson.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/opinion/30wilson.html
gbear605 5y ago
A lot of this was common in the US and Europe a hundred years ago, but laws and changing culture have stopped it. Just look at snake oil, or the many other “remedies”. See, eg, “ Down and Out in Paris and London” by Orwell, where among many other things he talks about how the restaurant kitchens in early 1900s Paris were extremely gross and dangerous, but because the front of the restaurants were clean, the customers seemed happy. “A customer orders, for example, a piece of toast. Somebody, pressed with work in a cellar deep underground, has to prepare it. How can he stop and say to himself, 'This toast is to be eaten—I must make it eatable'? All he knows is that it must look right and must be ready in three minutes. Some large drops of sweat fall from his forehead on to the toast. Why should he worry? Presently the toast falls among the filthy sawdust on the floor. Why trouble to make a new piece? It is much quicker to wipe the sawdust off. On the way upstairs the toast falls again, butter side down. Another wipe is all it needs. And so with everything.” China is at an interesting point because they’ve developed economically so much in the last fifty years. Their culture and law enforcement hasn’t caught up yet while the internet has, so this is shared with us.
- oefrha 5y ago
  > how the restaurant kitchens in early 1900s Paris were extremely gross and dangerous, but because the front of the restaurants were clean, the customers seemed happy. I heard a lot of restaurants in China these days, including takeout outlets, make live video feeds of their kitchens available online so that customers can be assured that the kitchens are hygienic. Of course that doesn’t tell you about the quality of source materials.
  - dflock 5y ago
    Well, a video feed of _a_ kitchen, at least.
    - rciorba 5y ago
      I've ordered from such a place in Munich. The novelty factor made it entertaining to watch and at some point I could identify my order being prepared. Not sure how many people you could deceive before you start to get called out, if the feed was of a different kitchen
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
xbmcuser 5y ago
China has moved from the 3rd world to the developed world in just 30 years. Their laws and social development have yet to catch up with their economic development. Most of the people in any kind of power position are in their 50s-60s ie those that grew up in a very harsh world. It will take another 20~30 years for it to change.
arcticbull 5y ago
> ... but stuff like poisoning your customers with Sudan Red I obviously am not in favor of using potentially carcinogenic dyes in foodstuffs, but in the case of the minute quantities of Sudan dies that would find their way into the eggs, I think "poisoning your customers" is a touch strong. Poisoning your ducks, maybe. Sudan dies are listed under Directive 67/548/EEC [1] as a Category III carcinogen. The description of that designation is: Substances which cause concern for man owing to possible carcinogenic effects but in respect of which available information is not adequate for making a satisfactory assessment. There is some evidence from appropriate animal studies, but this is insufficient to place the substance in Category II. [2, p.19] My understanding is the studies on Sudan dies showed potential carcinogenic activity in mice but not in rats. [3] When the Germans did a risk assessment on imports of certain spices from India with Sudan dies they said: The assessment that the risk of cancer is probably very low in the case of occasional consumption of foods with a low level does not, however, mean that there is no risk at all. [3] Again, probably still shouldn't eat, but I think a little perspective is healthy here too. You're not gonna die from having a couple of red eggs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_67/548/EEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_67/548/EEC [2] https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/dansub/pdfs/annex6_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/dansub/pdfs/annex6... [3] https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf
ndespres 5y ago
Well that might be a concerted effort to keep your attention turned away from all the similarly nasty things happening in your own country. In my country I think about older examples like the Swill Milk Scandal of the 1850s but more recent efforts like “ag-gag laws” that make it a crime to document the brutal conditions inside slaughterhouses and food processing facilities. This isn’t just a “China” problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal

nigerian1981 5y ago

The fake Chinese eggs were the high point for me

joeman1000 5y ago
Just read about those [1]. I was struck that the ingredients were similar to what’s in Gaviscon: - Sodium alginate - Calcium carbonate [1]: https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-a-big-problem-in-india https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-...
- nigerian1981 5y ago
  You’ve got to admire the ingenuity

azizsaya 5y ago

Same goes with India as well. I have always wondered about this, may be it is the trade-off between getting caught and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass to act in unethical ways.

arcticbull 5y ago
Interestingly the Germans also found some Sudan dies in spices imported from India. [1] [1] https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf
sandworm101 5y ago
>> and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass A very western sentiment. We often deride the quest for profits, demonizing people who put profit ahead of something more noble like safety. But in places like China "profit" is life. China has seen starvation in living memory. In countries without social safety nets a failed business likely means utter destitution, very often leading to physical violence. The people who run restaurants, and certainly the people who work in them, are not chasing profits because they want to drive nice cars. They are chasing profits because they too want to keep eating.
- sofixa 5y ago
  But doesn't getting caught poisoning customers result in destitution too?

Joeboy 5y ago

I guess it was quite a long time ago now but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_sc...

inglor_cz 5y ago
Wild. I was a kid in 1985, so not interested in wine yet, though Austria is right next door. There were several recent affairs in Europe with adulteration of suspect booze in the black (or gray) market with methylalcohol. That would fit right in.

Overtonwindow 5y ago

Not just Chinese markets, but Chinese products today, such as the cat food and melamine issue, and baby formula. Consumable Chinese products should have a warning label

gordaco 5y ago

This used to be common in parts of Europe as well. There is a book called From Poison Sweets to Counterfeit Coffee—The Dark History of the Food Cheats, from the food journalist Bee Wilson [1], which tells (among many other things) a lot of stories about arsenic poisonings in 19th century London, caused by the usage of certain red dyes in food. The saying that certain regulations are written in blood comes from these kinds of stories. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2507738.Swindled https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2507738.Swindled

unsignedchar 5y ago
Yes there was an extract in NYT comparting the issues with baby formula in 2008 China with 1850s New York https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/opinion/30wilson.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/opinion/30wilson.html

gbear605 5y ago

A lot of this was common in the US and Europe a hundred years ago, but laws and changing culture have stopped it. Just look at snake oil, or the many other “remedies”. See, eg, “ Down and Out in Paris and London” by Orwell, where among many other things he talks about how the restaurant kitchens in early 1900s Paris were extremely gross and dangerous, but because the front of the restaurants were clean, the customers seemed happy. “A customer orders, for example, a piece of toast. Somebody, pressed with work in a cellar deep underground, has to prepare it. How can he stop and say to himself, 'This toast is to be eaten—I must make it eatable'? All he knows is that it must look right and must be ready in three minutes. Some large drops of sweat fall from his forehead on to the toast. Why should he worry? Presently the toast falls among the filthy sawdust on the floor. Why trouble to make a new piece? It is much quicker to wipe the sawdust off. On the way upstairs the toast falls again, butter side down. Another wipe is all it needs. And so with everything.” China is at an interesting point because they’ve developed economically so much in the last fifty years. Their culture and law enforcement hasn’t caught up yet while the internet has, so this is shared with us.

oefrha 5y ago
> how the restaurant kitchens in early 1900s Paris were extremely gross and dangerous, but because the front of the restaurants were clean, the customers seemed happy. I heard a lot of restaurants in China these days, including takeout outlets, make live video feeds of their kitchens available online so that customers can be assured that the kitchens are hygienic. Of course that doesn’t tell you about the quality of source materials.
- dflock 5y ago
  Well, a video feed of _a_ kitchen, at least.
  - rciorba 5y ago
    I've ordered from such a place in Munich. The novelty factor made it entertaining to watch and at some point I could identify my order being prepared. Not sure how many people you could deceive before you start to get called out, if the feed was of a different kitchen

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

xbmcuser 5y ago

China has moved from the 3rd world to the developed world in just 30 years. Their laws and social development have yet to catch up with their economic development. Most of the people in any kind of power position are in their 50s-60s ie those that grew up in a very harsh world. It will take another 20~30 years for it to change.

arcticbull 5y ago

> ... but stuff like poisoning your customers with Sudan Red I obviously am not in favor of using potentially carcinogenic dyes in foodstuffs, but in the case of the minute quantities of Sudan dies that would find their way into the eggs, I think "poisoning your customers" is a touch strong. Poisoning your ducks, maybe. Sudan dies are listed under Directive 67/548/EEC [1] as a Category III carcinogen. The description of that designation is: Substances which cause concern for man owing to possible carcinogenic effects but in respect of which available information is not adequate for making a satisfactory assessment. There is some evidence from appropriate animal studies, but this is insufficient to place the substance in Category II. [2, p.19] My understanding is the studies on Sudan dies showed potential carcinogenic activity in mice but not in rats. [3] When the Germans did a risk assessment on imports of certain spices from India with Sudan dies they said: The assessment that the risk of cancer is probably very low in the case of occasional consumption of foods with a low level does not, however, mean that there is no risk at all. [3] Again, probably still shouldn't eat, but I think a little perspective is healthy here too. You're not gonna die from having a couple of red eggs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_67/548/EEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_67/548/EEC [2] https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/dansub/pdfs/annex6_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/dansub/pdfs/annex6... [3] https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf

ndespres 5y ago

Well that might be a concerted effort to keep your attention turned away from all the similarly nasty things happening in your own country. In my country I think about older examples like the Swill Milk Scandal of the 1850s but more recent efforts like “ag-gag laws” that make it a crime to document the brutal conditions inside slaughterhouses and food processing facilities. This isn’t just a “China” problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal