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Not too long ago in China, consumers preferred duck eggs with red tinted yolks. Market vendors would crack off the top half of an egg and display its yolk, and

Not too long ago in China, consumers preferred duck eggs with red tinted yolks. Market vendors would crack off the top half of an egg and display its yolk, and consumers thought the redder the better. So, of course, farmers started feeding a carcinogenic dye called Sudan Red directly to the ducks. * http://www.china.org.cn/english/health/189567.htm http://www.china.org.cn/english/health/189567.htm

solarist 4y ago
That’s a perfect example of Goodhart's law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
ryanmercer 4y ago
Turmeric has had similar issues, with some individuals adding industrial lead chromate to improve the colors (and add to the weight, as it is sold by weight) https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/09/28/turmeric-wellness-potion-moment-may-owe-its-yellow-color-lead-contamination-study-says/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/09/28/turmeric-...
- ineedasername 4y ago
  And if it was sold by volume they'd just be using some other type of filler. Outside of rigorous regulation it's hard to figure out how to fix this sort of thing. But then you end can also end up with massive factory farms or meat processing plants etc that can min/max the penalties against the profits, not to mention corrupt inspections.
inglor_cz 4y ago
Chinese markets strike me as absolutely brutal. I mean, there is always some theft, fraud etc. in any market (one of the oldest written records of humanity is a customer complaint about bad copper sold by a certain Mesopotamian merchant called Ea-nasir in 1750 BC), but stuff like poisoning your customers with Sudan Red, or adding melamine to yoghurt, or frying food on gutter oil seems to always be reported from China.
- nigerian1981 4y ago
  The fake Chinese eggs were the high point for me
  - joeman1000 4y ago
    Just read about those [1]. I was struck that the ingredients were similar to what’s in Gaviscon: - Sodium alginate - Calcium carbonate [1]: https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-a-big-problem-in-india https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-...
    - nigerian1981 4y ago
      You’ve got to admire the ingenuity
- azizsaya 4y ago
  Same goes with India as well. I have always wondered about this, may be it is the trade-off between getting caught and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass to act in unethical ways.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Interestingly the Germans also found some Sudan dies in spices imported from India. [1] [1] https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    >> and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass A very western sentiment. We often deride the quest for profits, demonizing people who put profit ahead of something more noble like safety. But in places like China "profit" is life. China has seen starvation in living memory. In countries without social safety nets a failed business likely means utter destitution, very often leading to physical violence. The people who run restaurants, and certainly the people who work in them, are not chasing profits because they want to drive nice cars. They are chasing profits because they too want to keep eating.
MichaelMoser123 4y ago
wasn't the social credit system supposed to fix this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System (i mean it looks like a 'big brother' system, but it was introduced with the objective of fixing abuses like this)
- heftig 4y ago
  Do corporations and other juridical persons also get a social credit score? This abuse was committed by a corp, not some farmer.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    One of the "nice" things about China's one-party and nakedly authoritarian nature is that the corporate veil doesn't really exist: if the Chinese government one day decides that the CEO of a company deserves to have their social credit measured against some set of civic outcomes produced by their company, then there's nothing stopping them from doing so.
dotancohen 4y ago
> Not too long ago in China... And still happening in Europe and the United States today. Canthaxanthin is very commonly added to farmed Salmon, to change its natural colour from grey to pink. Known to cause eye diseases in humans, it is also linked to several types of cancer in humans, but not proven as a carcinogen. And though Europe has banned the Azo food colourings, they are still perfectly legal to add to food in the US. And though their effects are mostly on children, it is specifically childrens' foods and snacks to which these bright colours are added.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  >Known to cause eye diseases in humans ... when taken in massive doses as a skin-tanning supplement. As far as I know, there's no evidence whatsoever of side-effects in humans when eaten in the quantities typical to those involved in produce like salmon/eggs.
- deleted 4y ago
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- technothrasher 4y ago
  > Europe has banned the Azo food colourings Europe has indeed banned some Azo food colorings, however canthaxanthin is not one of them, as far as I am aware. The EU has evaluated the safety of it on multiple occasions and found it safe to consume at the levels used in the food supply. > Known to cause eye diseases in humans Extremely excessive intake of tanning pills containing canthaxanthin was shown to cause accumulation of deposits in the retinas of a small number of individuals. Once the intake of pills was stopped, the condition completely cleared up in all individuals effected.
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solarist 4y ago

That’s a perfect example of Goodhart's law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

ryanmercer 4y ago

Turmeric has had similar issues, with some individuals adding industrial lead chromate to improve the colors (and add to the weight, as it is sold by weight) https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/09/28/turmeric-wellness-potion-moment-may-owe-its-yellow-color-lead-contamination-study-says/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/09/28/turmeric-...

ineedasername 4y ago
And if it was sold by volume they'd just be using some other type of filler. Outside of rigorous regulation it's hard to figure out how to fix this sort of thing. But then you end can also end up with massive factory farms or meat processing plants etc that can min/max the penalties against the profits, not to mention corrupt inspections.

inglor_cz 4y ago

Chinese markets strike me as absolutely brutal. I mean, there is always some theft, fraud etc. in any market (one of the oldest written records of humanity is a customer complaint about bad copper sold by a certain Mesopotamian merchant called Ea-nasir in 1750 BC), but stuff like poisoning your customers with Sudan Red, or adding melamine to yoghurt, or frying food on gutter oil seems to always be reported from China.

nigerian1981 4y ago
The fake Chinese eggs were the high point for me
- joeman1000 4y ago
  Just read about those [1]. I was struck that the ingredients were similar to what’s in Gaviscon: - Sodium alginate - Calcium carbonate [1]: https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-a-big-problem-in-india https://www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/fake-chinese-eggs-are-...
  - nigerian1981 4y ago
    You’ve got to admire the ingenuity
azizsaya 4y ago
Same goes with India as well. I have always wondered about this, may be it is the trade-off between getting caught and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass to act in unethical ways.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  Interestingly the Germans also found some Sudan dies in spices imported from India. [1] [1] https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf https://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/349/dyes_sudan_I_IV.pdf
- sandworm101 4y ago
  >> and the sheer desperation to make money that tilts the moral compass A very western sentiment. We often deride the quest for profits, demonizing people who put profit ahead of something more noble like safety. But in places like China "profit" is life. China has seen starvation in living memory. In countries without social safety nets a failed business likely means utter destitution, very often leading to physical violence. The people who run restaurants, and certainly the people who work in them, are not chasing profits because they want to drive nice cars. They are chasing profits because they too want to keep eating.

MichaelMoser123 4y ago

wasn't the social credit system supposed to fix this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System (i mean it looks like a 'big brother' system, but it was introduced with the objective of fixing abuses like this)

heftig 4y ago
Do corporations and other juridical persons also get a social credit score? This abuse was committed by a corp, not some farmer.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  One of the "nice" things about China's one-party and nakedly authoritarian nature is that the corporate veil doesn't really exist: if the Chinese government one day decides that the CEO of a company deserves to have their social credit measured against some set of civic outcomes produced by their company, then there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

dotancohen 4y ago

> Not too long ago in China... And still happening in Europe and the United States today. Canthaxanthin is very commonly added to farmed Salmon, to change its natural colour from grey to pink. Known to cause eye diseases in humans, it is also linked to several types of cancer in humans, but not proven as a carcinogen. And though Europe has banned the Azo food colourings, they are still perfectly legal to add to food in the US. And though their effects are mostly on children, it is specifically childrens' foods and snacks to which these bright colours are added.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
>Known to cause eye diseases in humans ... when taken in massive doses as a skin-tanning supplement. As far as I know, there's no evidence whatsoever of side-effects in humans when eaten in the quantities typical to those involved in produce like salmon/eggs.
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technothrasher 4y ago
> Europe has banned the Azo food colourings Europe has indeed banned some Azo food colorings, however canthaxanthin is not one of them, as far as I am aware. The EU has evaluated the safety of it on multiple occasions and found it safe to consume at the levels used in the food supply. > Known to cause eye diseases in humans Extremely excessive intake of tanning pills containing canthaxanthin was shown to cause accumulation of deposits in the retinas of a small number of individuals. Once the intake of pills was stopped, the condition completely cleared up in all individuals effected.

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