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There should be more discussion about these forgotten forms of slave trade. People tend to think about just the transatlantic slavery when they hear the word, b

There should be more discussion about these forgotten forms of slave trade. People tend to think about just the transatlantic slavery when they hear the word, but reality the transatlantic slavers just scaled up and spread an existing way of doing business. Interestingly enough, Crimea used to be a major center of slave trade all the way into 1700s. Christians were sold to Islamic world and vice versa. https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/ https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnis...

fsloth 4y ago
Focusing on the atlantic slave trade is understandable in US as that's very foundational there. I just hope US people would realize allmost none of their North-American cultural tropes are applicable elsewhere as a foundation for anything, really. Example: I am a finn. A middle class male in a high income country. What this means is: I am of the indigeneous population in this country (one of the population surges after the ice age). My kin where hunted as slaves and sold to asian slave markets. Finland never participated in the colonial era except as a dirt poor third world economy to be exploited. There is xenophobia and racism as elsewhere, but there is no historical past we should be particularly ashamed off. If I were to come to US I presume I would be categorized based on my skin color in the "population whose ancestors benefitted from an inhuman trade" where as the truth would be "whose ancestors were the oppressed". I don't find it insulting or anything, but I do get the sense that the strength of the US tropes would make it impossible to discuss this in US context without myself being labeled a white power supremacist or something worse.
- Thorentis 4y ago
  Unfortunately, along with Hollywood and other culture, the US thanks to the Internet also exports its political and social issues to the world. It has reached the point that "white people" are now considered the oppressors of every country, regardless of whether those people are indeed the indigenous population of the country. It is even more absurd in the UK, where in fact multiple groups of white people were successively displaced by conquest (Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc), and yet collectively, "Anglo Saxons" are perceived as oppressors, even if many decend from a group of people who were themselves oppressed.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    It is not incompetence but obvious malice: the granny of all SJW movements, the early Soviet regime, openly declared that Russians are oppressors and have to make up for centuries of oppression, even as the majority of Russian population were direct descendants of serfs, who were sold and bought at some periods of time; and that most of higher-class Russians were either expelled or outright killed at this point. Russia did not really recover from that outbreak, and some other countries may still have it ahead.
    - golergka 4y ago
      And still most of current Russian territory is colonian expansion, with subjugation of native cultures and people continuing well into present day. Have you tried renting an apartment in Moscow without “Slavic” looks?
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        You seem to assume that in some fashion, the minorities would be the winners of totalitarian cult's actions. They would not. The minorities would be better off living in a stable, lawful and democratic society, even if it does not try to declare war on the majority. Russians do not run their country for a century, but yeah, they may respond by not renting you their crappy and overpriced flat.
        krzyk 4y ago
        Oh, so some other nation is ruling Russians?
        thriftwy 4y ago
        Who is "ruling" the modern USA colonialism/white oppression discourse? It's not an ethnic group for sure.
    - unmole 4y ago
      > Russians are oppressors and have to make up for centuries of oppression Do you have a source for that?
- jowdones 4y ago
  >> Finland never participated in the colonial era except as a dirt poor third world economy to be exploited. A lot of this, I think, is the result of geography rather than the Finns (or rather, their leaders) being different / special. Romania never participated in the colonial era as well but it's not they wouldn't have liked to. Only neighboring Habsburgs, Russia and the Ottomans there was little direction to go. By the sea, they'd have to cross Bosphorus and Gibraltar straits to reach the open ocean so forget it either. But once the opportunity present, there was no hesitation to jump and snatch. Took Dobrudja from Bulgaria after they got beaten shitless in the Balkan Wars by a coalition of Turkey, Greece and Serbia. Invaded Hungary opportunistically in WW1 after posing neutral for a couple years and managed to shoot a few poor unsuspecting border guards before being pushed back and nearly wiped out by German troops (lead by a young Erwin Rommel), after which sign an armistice with the Central Powers and invade Moldova to "secure" some space. Then 12 hours before the end of WW1 declare war to Central Powers again and be technically on the winning side. Invade Hungary again and "secure" Transylvania. >> There is xenophobia and racism as elsewhere, but there is no historical past we should be particularly ashamed off. The past is mostly presented as "special military operation" :P
  - brigandish 4y ago
    I thought the point of their post was that no society, civilisation, "race" - whatever little circle could be drawn around a group - is special, by providing an obvious counter to the "white people are inherently bad" nonsense going on the US, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to refute.
  - prepend 4y ago
    > A lot of this, I think, is the result of geography rather than the Finns (or rather, their leaders) being different / special. Romania never participated in the colonial era as well but it's not they wouldn't have liked to. Doesn’t this apply to everywhere though. I’m sure every country would have loved to colonize places but didn’t for various reasons. I don’t think there are “evil” countries that colonized because they are evil. All countries that could, did. Fortunately, recently people became more moral and have worked to limit this. Although cynically, I think it’s because the less evil way is no more lucrative.
- acjohnson55 4y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding the concepts of white supremacy and white privilege. Most white Americans do not trace their ancestry to slave owners, even those whose ancestors were in the US before emancipation. Likewise, not all Black Americans are descendants of slaves in the US or the broader Americas. Nonetheless, we're a country where Black Americans are subject to all sorts of disadvantages. My parents experienced the segregated South. It wasn't that long ago. The attitudes that allowed for de jure segregation to persist didn't simply disappear in the 60s. No reparations were made for 350 years of de jure oppression. This casts a long shadow materially and societally. Generally, few people think of white people as being hardcore white supremacists simply for being white. Although I would say that Black people do want to see white people be actively anti-white supremacy, not just neutral, because white people are still the demographic majority and wield overwhelming political and economic power. So basically, there can be no justice to be found for Black Americans without the active participation of white people.
  - rajin444 4y ago
    > No reparations were made for 350 years of de jure oppression This is what all the other posters are saying. Nearly everyone has some ancestry that was oppressed for an extended period of time and they are not receiving reparations for it. Why should black Americans be different? When you consider how small changes made early amplify over time, there’s other groups of people with orders of magnitude greater claims to reparations.
    - dvngnt_ 4y ago
      http://www.mnchurches.org/blog/2021/02/18/holocaust-survivors-receive-german-reparations-day http://www.mnchurches.org/blog/2021/02/18/holocaust-survivor...
      - rajin444 4y ago
        Yes, people who were wronged and are still alive should be compensated. Punishing the son for the sins of the father is not healthy for society nor fair.
- hushpuppy 4y ago
  I am in the USA. My ancestors escaped from Prussia and immigrated from Sweden in the late 19th century, well after Slavery and the Slave trade was over and lived in hovels dug into the side of hills in the wind-swept and tree-free plains of the mid-west. In a area on the North American continent that was never touched by slavery. They became farmers and worked the land. My father didn't even have central plumbing for a great deal of his childhood. Had to piss in buckets when it became too cold and too dangerous to go to the outhouse in the winter. Yet I have plenty of people all over the planet that I should be ashamed to have European heritage living in the USA and that it's my fault there are a lot of poor black people. And that I owe them money and should "check my privilege" because of it.
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    > In a area on the North American continent that was never touched by slavery Ignoring that slavery touched the entirety of the continent, I'm going to guess that means your German ancestors ended up in the Midwest. Probably on Native American lands. To this day, Native Americans are 20 times more likely to lack indoor plumbing than Whites. Roughly fifteen percent of the Oglala Lakota County, containing the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, in South Dakota lack indoor plumbing. Meaning this year they likely had to piss in buckets as the outhouse was too dangerous.
    - native_samples 4y ago
      He explicitly says his ancestors ended up in the mid west in his comment.
    - 300bps 4y ago
      How many European peoples were subjugated and annihilated to get the current population we have today? It goes back even further than modern humans that likely directly caused or at least aided the extinction of the Neanderthal.
    - hushpuppy 4y ago
      > Ignoring that slavery touched the entirety of the continent, I'm going to guess that means your German ancestors ended up in the Midwest. Probably on Native American lands. By that logic there isn't a square inch anywhere on the planet that wasn't "touched by slavery". Which renders the whole notion pretty much irrelevant and diminishes the role of slavery in USA history.
- kasey_junk 4y ago
  The vast majority of white Americans can trace their heritage to oppressed people in one form or another and do not have heritage that participated in the transatlantic slave trade. That’s not the basis for conversations around white privilege (at least not to anyone whose spent even the barest amount of time reading about it). The issue is that all that history has created a systematically biased culture, one where a Finnish immigrant in 2022 will be treated better than a black person who can trace their American heritage back 300 years to forcible bondage, based purely on the color of their skin. As a middle American born in the latter part of the 20th century I’ve participated in no more colonialism or slavery than you have. I’m not personally responsible for that history. But I’m cognizant that being white gets me a leg up in many places including Finland.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    > The issue is that all that history has created a systematically biased culture, one where a Finnish immigrant in 2022 will be treated better than a black person who can trace their American heritage back 300 years to forcible bondage, based purely on the color of their skin. But would a Finn be treated better or worse than a black immigrant? Thomas Sowell has pointed out the difference in outcomes between black Americans and black immigrants to a small, similar area (New York, if I recall correctly). As they are impossible to tell apart for a stranger it makes for an interesting comparison. Coleman Hughes has also pointed out the same kind of analysis using data comparing outcomes for white people[1]: > Indeed, it is rare to find any two ethnic groups achieving identical outcomes, even when they belong to the same race. A cursory glance at the mean incomes of census-tracked ethnic groups shows Americans of Russian descent out-earning those of Swiss descent, who out-earn those of British descent, who out-earn those of Polish descent, who out-earn those of French descent in turn. If the disparity fallacy were true, then we ought to posit an elaborate system that is biased towards ethnic Russians, then the Swiss, followed by the Brits, the Poles and the French. Yet one never hears progressives make such claims. Moreover, one never hears progressives say, “French-Americans make 79 cents for every Russian-American dollar,” although the facts could easily be framed that way. Similar disparities between blacks and whites are regularly presented in such invidious terms. Rather than defaulting to systemic bias to explain disparities, we should understand that, even in the absence of discrimination, groups still differ in innumerable ways that affect their respective outcomes. [1] https://americandigest.org/long-read-the-racism-treadmill-by-coleman-hughes-quillette/ https://americandigest.org/long-read-the-racism-treadmill-by...
- badpun 4y ago
  Hear hear. I’m Polish, and my ancestors were serfs (like 90%+ of the nation), brutally exploited by Polish nobility and Catholic Church. We have more in common with US Blacks than US Whites, which sometimes shows in our attitudes.
- swayvil 4y ago
  The victim is the penultimate social power today. The victim's outraged representative is the ultimate. It's a role with great benefits. Thus the attraction of a narrative that supports that role.
- dfadsadsf 4y ago
  You should learn more about both Finnish history and current reality if you think Finland did not participate in oppression or subjugation of neighboring population. Starting with current and past discrimination and oppression of Sami [1] and active attempts to establish Greater Finland during WW2 [2] I will grant you that Finland was not very successful in establishing empire besides mostly erasing Sami identity and language but that's not for the lack of trying. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland
- chmod600 4y ago
  Why does it matter whether one's ancestors were indigenous or not? Either they found some land that was uncontended, or they fought for it. I guess finding and making use of uncontended land has the moral high ground, but I think it's the exception. And if one's ancestors fought for it, I don't see why "I was here first" gives any special moral high ground. Especially because "here first" is not always very clear.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  There wasn't a country prior to 1900 where >97% of the population wasn't dirt poor. The American South - AFAIK - is unique in the percentage of families that 1) had wealth, and 2) had slaves. Most of those people were independently wealthy immigrants, or descendents of them. Beside the American South - you're not going to find any group that can be considered a majority that directly benefited from slavery. Finland indirectly benefited from slavery - at the very least - by not DIRECTLY being enslaved in the slave trade. Sure, maybe not as indirect as New York City or London, but there were benefits...
  - krzyk 4y ago
    Also slavers from Africa (same color as the slaves) benefitted from the trade.
zeristor 4y ago
whilst there were many different slave routes the Atlantic slave trade of 12 million people was larger than the Indian Ocean slave trade of 8 or so million people over a thousand years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_slave_trade I hadn’t heard of the Zanj Rebellion of the 9th century in Basra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion
zeristor 4y ago
There must be evidence of DNA mixing, so many people being moved so far must have left a genetic trace.
- dudeinjapan 4y ago
  The Barbary pirates routinely castrated their slaves, precluding them from doing much DNA mixing.
  - zeristor 4y ago
    Yikes. But didn’t they also take female slaves too, some being concubines?
    - dudeinjapan 4y ago
      Yes, certainly, they raided European coastal villages. But AFAIK the majority of captives would have come from captured merchant ships, which were exclusively men. The pirates weren't so into keeping accurate records.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ransom1538 4y ago
      There are volumes of books on it. https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51hXkmBB-YL.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51hXkmBB-YL.jpg
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Source? Castration had very high mortality and I’m not aware of any historical slave trade where it was routinely done.
    - dudeinjapan 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Musl... "Castration: A fair proportion of male slaves were imported as eunuchs... in practice, emasculation was frequent" (and yes, it did also carry a high rate of death.)
somedude895 4y ago
Dan Carlin has a fantastic episode on slavery that I've been listening to for the past week while driving: https://open.spotify.com/episode/76Q5C6lBoYW2TXY6cmQ5n1?si=xY08r_0JRrmDSzdREJ-Hbg https://open.spotify.com/episode/76Q5C6lBoYW2TXY6cmQ5n1?si=x...
- prepend 4y ago
  I just finished listening and also think it’s really informative. I thought I knew a lot about US slave trade and I learned a lot. Here’s a link to the episode directly for people who use other podcast listeners (or just hate Spotify)… https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-human-resources/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-...
seer 4y ago
Dan carlin recently made an outstanding [deep dive into this topic](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-human-resources/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-...) one might say a bit too deep, but I personally really enjoy them. Even as its centered around US perspective, it does a very good job at setting the stage of what slavery meant in europe and throughout the world. It’s fascinating that one of the main reasons that transatlantic slavery turnout out as something that persisted for sooo much longer in US rather than slowly decline naturally like in the rest of world, was a technological invention made to make the life of slaves better. Talk about unintended consequences. The only big perspective that was missing I think was the Asian slavery in India, where someone who was a slave could become a legitimate ruler and there have been some examples of those. Where “slave” could actually turn out to be “forced high education to turn children into high value clerks and scribes”.
robertlagrant 4y ago
Indeed. Even the word "slave" comes from Slavs, who were white, and enslaved so much it got named after them.

fsloth 4y ago

Focusing on the atlantic slave trade is understandable in US as that's very foundational there. I just hope US people would realize allmost none of their North-American cultural tropes are applicable elsewhere as a foundation for anything, really. Example: I am a finn. A middle class male in a high income country. What this means is: I am of the indigeneous population in this country (one of the population surges after the ice age). My kin where hunted as slaves and sold to asian slave markets. Finland never participated in the colonial era except as a dirt poor third world economy to be exploited. There is xenophobia and racism as elsewhere, but there is no historical past we should be particularly ashamed off. If I were to come to US I presume I would be categorized based on my skin color in the "population whose ancestors benefitted from an inhuman trade" where as the truth would be "whose ancestors were the oppressed". I don't find it insulting or anything, but I do get the sense that the strength of the US tropes would make it impossible to discuss this in US context without myself being labeled a white power supremacist or something worse.

Thorentis 4y ago
Unfortunately, along with Hollywood and other culture, the US thanks to the Internet also exports its political and social issues to the world. It has reached the point that "white people" are now considered the oppressors of every country, regardless of whether those people are indeed the indigenous population of the country. It is even more absurd in the UK, where in fact multiple groups of white people were successively displaced by conquest (Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc), and yet collectively, "Anglo Saxons" are perceived as oppressors, even if many decend from a group of people who were themselves oppressed.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  It is not incompetence but obvious malice: the granny of all SJW movements, the early Soviet regime, openly declared that Russians are oppressors and have to make up for centuries of oppression, even as the majority of Russian population were direct descendants of serfs, who were sold and bought at some periods of time; and that most of higher-class Russians were either expelled or outright killed at this point. Russia did not really recover from that outbreak, and some other countries may still have it ahead.
  - golergka 4y ago
    And still most of current Russian territory is colonian expansion, with subjugation of native cultures and people continuing well into present day. Have you tried renting an apartment in Moscow without “Slavic” looks?
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      You seem to assume that in some fashion, the minorities would be the winners of totalitarian cult's actions. They would not. The minorities would be better off living in a stable, lawful and democratic society, even if it does not try to declare war on the majority. Russians do not run their country for a century, but yeah, they may respond by not renting you their crappy and overpriced flat.
      - krzyk 4y ago
        Oh, so some other nation is ruling Russians?
        thriftwy 4y ago
        Who is "ruling" the modern USA colonialism/white oppression discourse? It's not an ethnic group for sure.
  - unmole 4y ago
    > Russians are oppressors and have to make up for centuries of oppression Do you have a source for that?
jowdones 4y ago
>> Finland never participated in the colonial era except as a dirt poor third world economy to be exploited. A lot of this, I think, is the result of geography rather than the Finns (or rather, their leaders) being different / special. Romania never participated in the colonial era as well but it's not they wouldn't have liked to. Only neighboring Habsburgs, Russia and the Ottomans there was little direction to go. By the sea, they'd have to cross Bosphorus and Gibraltar straits to reach the open ocean so forget it either. But once the opportunity present, there was no hesitation to jump and snatch. Took Dobrudja from Bulgaria after they got beaten shitless in the Balkan Wars by a coalition of Turkey, Greece and Serbia. Invaded Hungary opportunistically in WW1 after posing neutral for a couple years and managed to shoot a few poor unsuspecting border guards before being pushed back and nearly wiped out by German troops (lead by a young Erwin Rommel), after which sign an armistice with the Central Powers and invade Moldova to "secure" some space. Then 12 hours before the end of WW1 declare war to Central Powers again and be technically on the winning side. Invade Hungary again and "secure" Transylvania. >> There is xenophobia and racism as elsewhere, but there is no historical past we should be particularly ashamed off. The past is mostly presented as "special military operation" :P
- brigandish 4y ago
  I thought the point of their post was that no society, civilisation, "race" - whatever little circle could be drawn around a group - is special, by providing an obvious counter to the "white people are inherently bad" nonsense going on the US, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to refute.
- prepend 4y ago
  > A lot of this, I think, is the result of geography rather than the Finns (or rather, their leaders) being different / special. Romania never participated in the colonial era as well but it's not they wouldn't have liked to. Doesn’t this apply to everywhere though. I’m sure every country would have loved to colonize places but didn’t for various reasons. I don’t think there are “evil” countries that colonized because they are evil. All countries that could, did. Fortunately, recently people became more moral and have worked to limit this. Although cynically, I think it’s because the less evil way is no more lucrative.
acjohnson55 4y ago
I think you're misunderstanding the concepts of white supremacy and white privilege. Most white Americans do not trace their ancestry to slave owners, even those whose ancestors were in the US before emancipation. Likewise, not all Black Americans are descendants of slaves in the US or the broader Americas. Nonetheless, we're a country where Black Americans are subject to all sorts of disadvantages. My parents experienced the segregated South. It wasn't that long ago. The attitudes that allowed for de jure segregation to persist didn't simply disappear in the 60s. No reparations were made for 350 years of de jure oppression. This casts a long shadow materially and societally. Generally, few people think of white people as being hardcore white supremacists simply for being white. Although I would say that Black people do want to see white people be actively anti-white supremacy, not just neutral, because white people are still the demographic majority and wield overwhelming political and economic power. So basically, there can be no justice to be found for Black Americans without the active participation of white people.
- rajin444 4y ago
  > No reparations were made for 350 years of de jure oppression This is what all the other posters are saying. Nearly everyone has some ancestry that was oppressed for an extended period of time and they are not receiving reparations for it. Why should black Americans be different? When you consider how small changes made early amplify over time, there’s other groups of people with orders of magnitude greater claims to reparations.
  - dvngnt_ 4y ago
    http://www.mnchurches.org/blog/2021/02/18/holocaust-survivors-receive-german-reparations-day http://www.mnchurches.org/blog/2021/02/18/holocaust-survivor...
    - rajin444 4y ago
      Yes, people who were wronged and are still alive should be compensated. Punishing the son for the sins of the father is not healthy for society nor fair.
hushpuppy 4y ago
I am in the USA. My ancestors escaped from Prussia and immigrated from Sweden in the late 19th century, well after Slavery and the Slave trade was over and lived in hovels dug into the side of hills in the wind-swept and tree-free plains of the mid-west. In a area on the North American continent that was never touched by slavery. They became farmers and worked the land. My father didn't even have central plumbing for a great deal of his childhood. Had to piss in buckets when it became too cold and too dangerous to go to the outhouse in the winter. Yet I have plenty of people all over the planet that I should be ashamed to have European heritage living in the USA and that it's my fault there are a lot of poor black people. And that I owe them money and should "check my privilege" because of it.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  > In a area on the North American continent that was never touched by slavery Ignoring that slavery touched the entirety of the continent, I'm going to guess that means your German ancestors ended up in the Midwest. Probably on Native American lands. To this day, Native Americans are 20 times more likely to lack indoor plumbing than Whites. Roughly fifteen percent of the Oglala Lakota County, containing the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, in South Dakota lack indoor plumbing. Meaning this year they likely had to piss in buckets as the outhouse was too dangerous.
  - native_samples 4y ago
    He explicitly says his ancestors ended up in the mid west in his comment.
  - 300bps 4y ago
    How many European peoples were subjugated and annihilated to get the current population we have today? It goes back even further than modern humans that likely directly caused or at least aided the extinction of the Neanderthal.
  - hushpuppy 4y ago
    > Ignoring that slavery touched the entirety of the continent, I'm going to guess that means your German ancestors ended up in the Midwest. Probably on Native American lands. By that logic there isn't a square inch anywhere on the planet that wasn't "touched by slavery". Which renders the whole notion pretty much irrelevant and diminishes the role of slavery in USA history.
kasey_junk 4y ago
The vast majority of white Americans can trace their heritage to oppressed people in one form or another and do not have heritage that participated in the transatlantic slave trade. That’s not the basis for conversations around white privilege (at least not to anyone whose spent even the barest amount of time reading about it). The issue is that all that history has created a systematically biased culture, one where a Finnish immigrant in 2022 will be treated better than a black person who can trace their American heritage back 300 years to forcible bondage, based purely on the color of their skin. As a middle American born in the latter part of the 20th century I’ve participated in no more colonialism or slavery than you have. I’m not personally responsible for that history. But I’m cognizant that being white gets me a leg up in many places including Finland.
- brigandish 4y ago
  > The issue is that all that history has created a systematically biased culture, one where a Finnish immigrant in 2022 will be treated better than a black person who can trace their American heritage back 300 years to forcible bondage, based purely on the color of their skin. But would a Finn be treated better or worse than a black immigrant? Thomas Sowell has pointed out the difference in outcomes between black Americans and black immigrants to a small, similar area (New York, if I recall correctly). As they are impossible to tell apart for a stranger it makes for an interesting comparison. Coleman Hughes has also pointed out the same kind of analysis using data comparing outcomes for white people[1]: > Indeed, it is rare to find any two ethnic groups achieving identical outcomes, even when they belong to the same race. A cursory glance at the mean incomes of census-tracked ethnic groups shows Americans of Russian descent out-earning those of Swiss descent, who out-earn those of British descent, who out-earn those of Polish descent, who out-earn those of French descent in turn. If the disparity fallacy were true, then we ought to posit an elaborate system that is biased towards ethnic Russians, then the Swiss, followed by the Brits, the Poles and the French. Yet one never hears progressives make such claims. Moreover, one never hears progressives say, “French-Americans make 79 cents for every Russian-American dollar,” although the facts could easily be framed that way. Similar disparities between blacks and whites are regularly presented in such invidious terms. Rather than defaulting to systemic bias to explain disparities, we should understand that, even in the absence of discrimination, groups still differ in innumerable ways that affect their respective outcomes. [1] https://americandigest.org/long-read-the-racism-treadmill-by-coleman-hughes-quillette/ https://americandigest.org/long-read-the-racism-treadmill-by...
badpun 4y ago
Hear hear. I’m Polish, and my ancestors were serfs (like 90%+ of the nation), brutally exploited by Polish nobility and Catholic Church. We have more in common with US Blacks than US Whites, which sometimes shows in our attitudes.
swayvil 4y ago
The victim is the penultimate social power today. The victim's outraged representative is the ultimate. It's a role with great benefits. Thus the attraction of a narrative that supports that role.
dfadsadsf 4y ago
You should learn more about both Finnish history and current reality if you think Finland did not participate in oppression or subjugation of neighboring population. Starting with current and past discrimination and oppression of Sami [1] and active attempts to establish Greater Finland during WW2 [2] I will grant you that Finland was not very successful in establishing empire besides mostly erasing Sami identity and language but that's not for the lack of trying. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland
chmod600 4y ago
Why does it matter whether one's ancestors were indigenous or not? Either they found some land that was uncontended, or they fought for it. I guess finding and making use of uncontended land has the moral high ground, but I think it's the exception. And if one's ancestors fought for it, I don't see why "I was here first" gives any special moral high ground. Especially because "here first" is not always very clear.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
There wasn't a country prior to 1900 where >97% of the population wasn't dirt poor. The American South - AFAIK - is unique in the percentage of families that 1) had wealth, and 2) had slaves. Most of those people were independently wealthy immigrants, or descendents of them. Beside the American South - you're not going to find any group that can be considered a majority that directly benefited from slavery. Finland indirectly benefited from slavery - at the very least - by not DIRECTLY being enslaved in the slave trade. Sure, maybe not as indirect as New York City or London, but there were benefits...
- krzyk 4y ago
  Also slavers from Africa (same color as the slaves) benefitted from the trade.

zeristor 4y ago

whilst there were many different slave routes the Atlantic slave trade of 12 million people was larger than the Indian Ocean slave trade of 8 or so million people over a thousand years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_slave_trade I hadn’t heard of the Zanj Rebellion of the 9th century in Basra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion

zeristor 4y ago

There must be evidence of DNA mixing, so many people being moved so far must have left a genetic trace.

dudeinjapan 4y ago
The Barbary pirates routinely castrated their slaves, precluding them from doing much DNA mixing.
- zeristor 4y ago
  Yikes. But didn’t they also take female slaves too, some being concubines?
  - dudeinjapan 4y ago
    Yes, certainly, they raided European coastal villages. But AFAIK the majority of captives would have come from captured merchant ships, which were exclusively men. The pirates weren't so into keeping accurate records.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ransom1538 4y ago
    There are volumes of books on it. https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51hXkmBB-YL.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51hXkmBB-YL.jpg
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Source? Castration had very high mortality and I’m not aware of any historical slave trade where it was routinely done.
  - dudeinjapan 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Musl... "Castration: A fair proportion of male slaves were imported as eunuchs... in practice, emasculation was frequent" (and yes, it did also carry a high rate of death.)

somedude895 4y ago

Dan Carlin has a fantastic episode on slavery that I've been listening to for the past week while driving: https://open.spotify.com/episode/76Q5C6lBoYW2TXY6cmQ5n1?si=xY08r_0JRrmDSzdREJ-Hbg https://open.spotify.com/episode/76Q5C6lBoYW2TXY6cmQ5n1?si=x...

prepend 4y ago
I just finished listening and also think it’s really informative. I thought I knew a lot about US slave trade and I learned a lot. Here’s a link to the episode directly for people who use other podcast listeners (or just hate Spotify)… https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-human-resources/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-...

seer 4y ago

Dan carlin recently made an outstanding [deep dive into this topic](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-human-resources/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-...) one might say a bit too deep, but I personally really enjoy them. Even as its centered around US perspective, it does a very good job at setting the stage of what slavery meant in europe and throughout the world. It’s fascinating that one of the main reasons that transatlantic slavery turnout out as something that persisted for sooo much longer in US rather than slowly decline naturally like in the rest of world, was a technological invention made to make the life of slaves better. Talk about unintended consequences. The only big perspective that was missing I think was the Asian slavery in India, where someone who was a slave could become a legitimate ruler and there have been some examples of those. Where “slave” could actually turn out to be “forced high education to turn children into high value clerks and scribes”.

robertlagrant 4y ago

Indeed. Even the word "slave" comes from Slavs, who were white, and enslaved so much it got named after them.