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how about sticking to the speed limit? Because the speed limit in much of the US is below the “natural” speed of that roadway. We have highways where 80+mph i

how about sticking to the speed limit? Because the speed limit in much of the US is below the “natural” speed of that roadway. We have highways where 80+mph is the norm, but the posted limited can be anywhere from 55-70mph (I-95 along the east coast). Driving the speed limit actually becomes dangerous. At this point, speed enforcement becomes a hit-or-miss affair, where you’re at the mercy of the police officer. Better hope he’s having a good day and you don’t “look suspicious”, etc. Making it even worse, that same interstate (I-95) has the limit vary from 55-70 depending on state/town - the highway itself didn’t change, just the jurisdiction. And yes, the states with the lower limits are notorious for ticketing out-of-state drivers. And that’s just the highway. Secondary roads through small towns are just a racket. https://www.newsweek.com/police-chief-quits-after-report-reveals-half-citys-budget-alleged-traffic-traps-1673256 https://www.newsweek.com/police-chief-quits-after-report-rev...

criddell 5y ago
I think in most places, the speed limit is set to the 80th percentile speed. If there is a road where people routinely drive much faster on, you might want to ask for your county to do a speed study on that road. In some places, you may be able to use the lack of an up-to-date speed study as a defense against a speeding charge.
oneplane 5y ago
Since when is a speed limit not a rule/law but a 'feeling' for a 'natural' speed? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That essentially just escalates as everyones 'naturally' speeds up as a herd and then the whole point of having rules is moot.
- ghaff 5y ago
  You could also ask when is walking across the street against a red light or outside of a crosswalk a "feeling" about whether it's a safe thing to do that doesn't impede traffic--even though it violates the law? The fact is that there are plenty of laws we somewhat violate on a daily basis. This has its own set of problems but it's the way things are essentially everywhere.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  Your common sense is wrong here. If you replace speed limits with "go a safe speed" then people don't go faster indefinitely, they'll find a speed that depends on road design. It doesn't escalate, and it's only notably faster than the speed limit when something has gone wrong with the road planning.
  - jfk13 5y ago
    You're ignoring the fact that many people's perception of what is "a safe speed" is not at all reliable. (Compare: what percentage of people would claim to be better-than-average drivers? https://www.smithlawco.com/blog/2017/december/do-most-drivers-really-think-they-are-above-aver/ https://www.smithlawco.com/blog/2017/december/do-most-driver...) We have speed limits because trusting people to "go a safe speed" doesn't work, in general.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      Objectively, the group settles into a particular speed. It's based on both safety and perceived safety, and it's not perfect, but it works out pretty well. If the road is designed properly it's the top few percentile that you need to restrain, not the masses. If you make a super wide straight shot of asphalt down a residential neighborhood, and people go too fast, that's the road designer's fault.
      - jfk13 5y ago
        > it's the top few percentile that you need to restrain, not the masses And how do you propose to "restrain" them, if not by enforcing a speed limit?
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        I'm not suggesting getting rid of speed limits. I was objecting to the idea that there is no natural speed, and that the group will "just escalate". Nothing else.
        5y ago
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Roads tend to have a speed where people feel comfortable. In theory, road engineers design roadways to match the desired speed. In practice, that doesn’t always happen. Even worse, cities/towns have been known to lower the speed limit to drive revenue. Edit, some links: https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2021/02/08/what-is-design-speed-and-how-does-it-affect-our-streets/ https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2021/02/08/what-is-design-sp... https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slowing-traffic-is-street-design-not-speed-limits https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slow... Usually, when people talk about the topic, they’re trying to calm local traffic. But the concept applies to highways where speed limits can be pretty arbitrary. Plenty of interstate where 80+mph feels safe, but is posted at 55 or 65.
- jjav 5y ago
  > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That essentially just escalates as everyones 'naturally' speeds up as a herd and then the whole point of having rules is moot. You'd be wrong. If you remove all speed limits and all enforcement, people won't be driving 180mph on small roads. Turns out for the vast majority of the drivers, a combination of awareness and experience will lead them to correctly judge a highest actually safe speed and they'll just drive that and no more. This is codified in the rules that state that speed limits are supposed to be set to 85th percentile of natural traffic flow, not lower. That way for nearly everyone on the road the speed limit will make sense and not be oppressively low (laws are supposed to make sense, not just be arbitrary enforcement). That's the rule on paper. Of course, if the speed limit matches the natural speed, it means hardly anyone will ever be speeding, which cuts the revenue source of speeding tickets. So jurisdictions play all kinds of games to set the posted speed limit far below the 85th percentile, which increases ticket revenue.
UncleMeat 5y ago
> Driving the speed limit actually becomes dangerous. I've lived in VA for decades and have driven all over the state. There is no highway where driving the speed limit is actually dangerous and there certainly isn't a highway where the norm is 20 over.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  I was referring to the interstates in general, and I-95 specifically. Not just within Virginia. Particularly stretches through South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    But the context was VA's reckless driving laws. There is no stretch of 95 in VA (I've driven it across the entire state many times) where it is unsafe to drive the listed limit.
- sterlind 5y ago
  in Atlanta there's a stretch of interstate at 50mph, and the traffic flows at 70+mph. driving the posted limit is dangerous, and possibly even illegal (delaying traffic.)
  - callalex 5y ago
    Are the loaded semi trucks also driving 70+?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >here is no highway where driving the speed limit is actually dangerous That's only true if you're oblivious to other traffic to the point of being dangerous to said traffic. I used to zip down I95 in my personal car, get in a commercial vehicle and then proceed to get in a commercial vehicle and be a rolling obstruction at 55-60. The latter was way less safe than just being another ant in line like I was in my personal vehicle. Sure, if someone clipped me while I was driving the truck it would have been their fault but I was though my actions still creating a bunch of unnecessary danger. There was a constant stream of people having to merge to go around me. It was all the problems you get at an on-ramp with merging traffic. I will cut some slack to heavily laden vehicles, big slow trucks and shitboxes that can't maintain traffic speed. But some self-righteous jerk in his Camry or whatever has no excuse. >There is no highway where driving the speed limit is actually dangerous and there certainly isn't a highway where the norm is 20 over. I95, literally every weekday morning and evening just before and just after rush hour clogs things up. Sign says 55. Most traffic goes 75+/-5 with the occasional fast and slow vehicles well above/below that speed.
cycomanic 5y ago
As someone who grew up and drove in Germany and being used to 160+km/h on highways moving to Australia made quite a positive change to my driving. In Germany outside of cities everyone drives at least 10%over the limit. You also constantly look where to overtake and be a little faster (and I was by no means a speeder or very fast driver) . Australia on the other hand is very strikt about speed limits and even being 10% over can be a significant fine, so people gereally adhere much closer to the limits. Having to stick to the limit is actually liberating, I just stopped trying find some extra time by e. g. overtaking yet another car, and instead my driving experience is much more relaxed, I just put on cruise control and that's it. I seriously encourage you to think if you really need to be speeding, because the time you save is miniscule, while the driving is significantly more stressful.
vkou 5y ago
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the 'natural' speed limit of a freeway is a death sentence in the event of a crash. I have zero sympathy for this. If you're doing 20 mph over the limit, you shouldn't be driving, whether it comes from taking away you car, or from putting you in a cage for a few weeks.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  In that case, the road isn’t fit for purpose.
  - vkou 5y ago
    It's not the road that isn't fit for purpose, it's the human body plus the modern automobile that's not fit for safely handling a crash at 80 mph. Either build better humans, better automobiles, or slow down.

criddell 5y ago

I think in most places, the speed limit is set to the 80th percentile speed. If there is a road where people routinely drive much faster on, you might want to ask for your county to do a speed study on that road. In some places, you may be able to use the lack of an up-to-date speed study as a defense against a speeding charge.

oneplane 5y ago

Since when is a speed limit not a rule/law but a 'feeling' for a 'natural' speed? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That essentially just escalates as everyones 'naturally' speeds up as a herd and then the whole point of having rules is moot.

ghaff 5y ago
You could also ask when is walking across the street against a red light or outside of a crosswalk a "feeling" about whether it's a safe thing to do that doesn't impede traffic--even though it violates the law? The fact is that there are plenty of laws we somewhat violate on a daily basis. This has its own set of problems but it's the way things are essentially everywhere.
Dylan16807 5y ago
Your common sense is wrong here. If you replace speed limits with "go a safe speed" then people don't go faster indefinitely, they'll find a speed that depends on road design. It doesn't escalate, and it's only notably faster than the speed limit when something has gone wrong with the road planning.
- jfk13 5y ago
  You're ignoring the fact that many people's perception of what is "a safe speed" is not at all reliable. (Compare: what percentage of people would claim to be better-than-average drivers? https://www.smithlawco.com/blog/2017/december/do-most-drivers-really-think-they-are-above-aver/ https://www.smithlawco.com/blog/2017/december/do-most-driver...) We have speed limits because trusting people to "go a safe speed" doesn't work, in general.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    Objectively, the group settles into a particular speed. It's based on both safety and perceived safety, and it's not perfect, but it works out pretty well. If the road is designed properly it's the top few percentile that you need to restrain, not the masses. If you make a super wide straight shot of asphalt down a residential neighborhood, and people go too fast, that's the road designer's fault.
    - jfk13 5y ago
      > it's the top few percentile that you need to restrain, not the masses And how do you propose to "restrain" them, if not by enforcing a speed limit?
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        I'm not suggesting getting rid of speed limits. I was objecting to the idea that there is no natural speed, and that the group will "just escalate". Nothing else.
      - 5y ago
alistairSH 5y ago
Roads tend to have a speed where people feel comfortable. In theory, road engineers design roadways to match the desired speed. In practice, that doesn’t always happen. Even worse, cities/towns have been known to lower the speed limit to drive revenue. Edit, some links: https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2021/02/08/what-is-design-speed-and-how-does-it-affect-our-streets/ https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2021/02/08/what-is-design-sp... https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slowing-traffic-is-street-design-not-speed-limits https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slow... Usually, when people talk about the topic, they’re trying to calm local traffic. But the concept applies to highways where speed limits can be pretty arbitrary. Plenty of interstate where 80+mph feels safe, but is posted at 55 or 65.
jjav 5y ago
> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That essentially just escalates as everyones 'naturally' speeds up as a herd and then the whole point of having rules is moot. You'd be wrong. If you remove all speed limits and all enforcement, people won't be driving 180mph on small roads. Turns out for the vast majority of the drivers, a combination of awareness and experience will lead them to correctly judge a highest actually safe speed and they'll just drive that and no more. This is codified in the rules that state that speed limits are supposed to be set to 85th percentile of natural traffic flow, not lower. That way for nearly everyone on the road the speed limit will make sense and not be oppressively low (laws are supposed to make sense, not just be arbitrary enforcement). That's the rule on paper. Of course, if the speed limit matches the natural speed, it means hardly anyone will ever be speeding, which cuts the revenue source of speeding tickets. So jurisdictions play all kinds of games to set the posted speed limit far below the 85th percentile, which increases ticket revenue.

UncleMeat 5y ago

> Driving the speed limit actually becomes dangerous. I've lived in VA for decades and have driven all over the state. There is no highway where driving the speed limit is actually dangerous and there certainly isn't a highway where the norm is 20 over.

alistairSH 5y ago
I was referring to the interstates in general, and I-95 specifically. Not just within Virginia. Particularly stretches through South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  But the context was VA's reckless driving laws. There is no stretch of 95 in VA (I've driven it across the entire state many times) where it is unsafe to drive the listed limit.
sterlind 5y ago
in Atlanta there's a stretch of interstate at 50mph, and the traffic flows at 70+mph. driving the posted limit is dangerous, and possibly even illegal (delaying traffic.)
- callalex 5y ago
  Are the loaded semi trucks also driving 70+?
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>here is no highway where driving the speed limit is actually dangerous That's only true if you're oblivious to other traffic to the point of being dangerous to said traffic. I used to zip down I95 in my personal car, get in a commercial vehicle and then proceed to get in a commercial vehicle and be a rolling obstruction at 55-60. The latter was way less safe than just being another ant in line like I was in my personal vehicle. Sure, if someone clipped me while I was driving the truck it would have been their fault but I was though my actions still creating a bunch of unnecessary danger. There was a constant stream of people having to merge to go around me. It was all the problems you get at an on-ramp with merging traffic. I will cut some slack to heavily laden vehicles, big slow trucks and shitboxes that can't maintain traffic speed. But some self-righteous jerk in his Camry or whatever has no excuse. >There is no highway where driving the speed limit is actually dangerous and there certainly isn't a highway where the norm is 20 over. I95, literally every weekday morning and evening just before and just after rush hour clogs things up. Sign says 55. Most traffic goes 75+/-5 with the occasional fast and slow vehicles well above/below that speed.

cycomanic 5y ago

As someone who grew up and drove in Germany and being used to 160+km/h on highways moving to Australia made quite a positive change to my driving. In Germany outside of cities everyone drives at least 10%over the limit. You also constantly look where to overtake and be a little faster (and I was by no means a speeder or very fast driver) . Australia on the other hand is very strikt about speed limits and even being 10% over can be a significant fine, so people gereally adhere much closer to the limits. Having to stick to the limit is actually liberating, I just stopped trying find some extra time by e. g. overtaking yet another car, and instead my driving experience is much more relaxed, I just put on cruise control and that's it. I seriously encourage you to think if you really need to be speeding, because the time you save is miniscule, while the driving is significantly more stressful.

vkou 5y ago

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the 'natural' speed limit of a freeway is a death sentence in the event of a crash. I have zero sympathy for this. If you're doing 20 mph over the limit, you shouldn't be driving, whether it comes from taking away you car, or from putting you in a cage for a few weeks.

alistairSH 5y ago
In that case, the road isn’t fit for purpose.
- vkou 5y ago
  It's not the road that isn't fit for purpose, it's the human body plus the modern automobile that's not fit for safely handling a crash at 80 mph. Either build better humans, better automobiles, or slow down.