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> Those people should be selling their land. We should not have a scarce natural resource sitting idle or under-utilized. From the article as well: If we have

by belorn 5y ago

> Those people should be selling their land. We should not have a scarce natural resource sitting idle or under-utilized. From the article as well: If we have that attitude to people owning things, then the first thing should be wealth tax on jewelry, cars, boats, and other luxury items which if you can't afford to pay the tax then you should be forced to sell it. I remember how popular that concept where here in EU when refugees had their jewelry taken by the government in order to pay for expenses and basic living. People have this weird attachment to objects that defy rational thought. I get the sentiment, but in term of winning popular support it has some distinct emotional drawbacks. If we want to specifically address vacant lots within city boundaries, a tax on that seems fair. Not many low income home owners live in their property owned vacant lots located inside city boundaries.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
I don't think this necessitates having that attitude toward owning things in general. Owning scarce natural resources is very different than owning man-made resources that have an elastic supply that can be expanded through production. A coherent moral framework can support the former being taxed, while maintaining that the latter should not be. Private ownership of the latter is both just, because the original owners comes to own it by producing it, and economically advantageous, because ownership incentivizes production, which leads to its supply increasing. With land, there is no moral justification for private ownership, as no private party created the land, and private ownership does not have the economic effect of leading to the supply of it expanding, since land cannot be produced.
- belorn 5y ago
  I have a hard time distinguish between people owning gold and people owning land, and in this discussion, we are not just talking about owning land but people owning a house on that land. Similar in how gold is turned into a jewelry that people form emotional attachment to, a home is built on land which people form emotional attachments to. In both cases we have a man-made resource, ie a jewelry and homes, and in both cases they got created from a scarce natural resources, gold and land. They are also both mental concepts that is a man-made product formed by using a natural resource. Land cannot be produced but homes can be designed, constructed and built. If we want to tax land but not homes, and we want to tax gold but not jewelry, I would find that perfectly consistent. People rarely form attachment to unused land, similar to how people don't form attachment to solid gold bars or ingots. Incentivizes production of unused land and vacant properties is something I would support, while I am rather suspicious of taxing ownership of man-made resources.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    Gold rarely appears in its valuable form in accessible natural settings. It is acquired through the costly process of mining, which increases its supply. So it is not like land with respect to either supply elasticity or the cost of initial acquisition. >>a home is built on land which people form emotional attachments to I would argue people should be encouraged to not form an emotional attachment to a house, because the land it occupies is part of a larger society which may come to need it more than the person does. You may have grown up in a house your grandfather built, but the neighborhood of that house may have changed from a sparsely populated district of a small city, to the densely populated economic core of a major metropolis and regional shipping/trading hub. The land needs to be repurposed to benefit the greatest number of people, and I don't think a perpetual land claim stemming from the principle of first possession should trump that imperative.
    - belorn 5y ago
      Gold is a finite resource, like any other natural resource. The cost of gold is partially formed by the land purchase of the mining company paid. One can not just start digging and increase the supply of gold. You need land first and it need to be one of a few special locations on earth where such mining is profitable. I don't think the distinction being present are convinceing me. I can agree that undeveloped natural resources might need to be treated differently than developed resources, on that ground that undeveloped natural resources are inherently limited, scares and in general useless unless developed. Undeveloped land don't serve anyone except as an investment, and thus special rules might be needed. I will also say that while I can agree that people should not form emotional attachments to objects, and I will include here any object, it is part of human behavior to do so. Be that a house, car, boat, jewelry, guitar, a sport players T-shirt, or what have you. For most people a house is just a house. For others it a family heirloom, built and maintained for hundred of years by the same family. We don't generally repurpose objects in order to benefit the greatest number of people, and I doubt there is a very strong support for that.
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
solidsnack9000 5y ago
We don't have a housing crisis because of scarce jewelry that isn't being put to use -- and the same is true of luxury boats, fancy cars, and other luxury items. The issue is precisely that land is not a luxury item; but it is being treated like one, in that it's being used as a store of value.
imtringued 5y ago
>If we have that attitude to people owning things, then the first thing should be wealth tax on jewelry, cars, boats, and other luxury items which if you can't afford to pay the tax then you should be forced to sell it. That actually makes sense if you want to avoid price gouging and scalping over the short term. If you tax wealth then people will try to reduce the amount of wealth they have which is undesirable over the long term. If you tax land, people will reduce the amount of land they use, which is exactly what you want in an urban environment.

by belorn 5y ago

CryptoPunk 5y ago

I don't think this necessitates having that attitude toward owning things in general. Owning scarce natural resources is very different than owning man-made resources that have an elastic supply that can be expanded through production. A coherent moral framework can support the former being taxed, while maintaining that the latter should not be. Private ownership of the latter is both just, because the original owners comes to own it by producing it, and economically advantageous, because ownership incentivizes production, which leads to its supply increasing. With land, there is no moral justification for private ownership, as no private party created the land, and private ownership does not have the economic effect of leading to the supply of it expanding, since land cannot be produced.

belorn 5y ago
I have a hard time distinguish between people owning gold and people owning land, and in this discussion, we are not just talking about owning land but people owning a house on that land. Similar in how gold is turned into a jewelry that people form emotional attachment to, a home is built on land which people form emotional attachments to. In both cases we have a man-made resource, ie a jewelry and homes, and in both cases they got created from a scarce natural resources, gold and land. They are also both mental concepts that is a man-made product formed by using a natural resource. Land cannot be produced but homes can be designed, constructed and built. If we want to tax land but not homes, and we want to tax gold but not jewelry, I would find that perfectly consistent. People rarely form attachment to unused land, similar to how people don't form attachment to solid gold bars or ingots. Incentivizes production of unused land and vacant properties is something I would support, while I am rather suspicious of taxing ownership of man-made resources.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  Gold rarely appears in its valuable form in accessible natural settings. It is acquired through the costly process of mining, which increases its supply. So it is not like land with respect to either supply elasticity or the cost of initial acquisition. >>a home is built on land which people form emotional attachments to I would argue people should be encouraged to not form an emotional attachment to a house, because the land it occupies is part of a larger society which may come to need it more than the person does. You may have grown up in a house your grandfather built, but the neighborhood of that house may have changed from a sparsely populated district of a small city, to the densely populated economic core of a major metropolis and regional shipping/trading hub. The land needs to be repurposed to benefit the greatest number of people, and I don't think a perpetual land claim stemming from the principle of first possession should trump that imperative.
  - belorn 5y ago
    Gold is a finite resource, like any other natural resource. The cost of gold is partially formed by the land purchase of the mining company paid. One can not just start digging and increase the supply of gold. You need land first and it need to be one of a few special locations on earth where such mining is profitable. I don't think the distinction being present are convinceing me. I can agree that undeveloped natural resources might need to be treated differently than developed resources, on that ground that undeveloped natural resources are inherently limited, scares and in general useless unless developed. Undeveloped land don't serve anyone except as an investment, and thus special rules might be needed. I will also say that while I can agree that people should not form emotional attachments to objects, and I will include here any object, it is part of human behavior to do so. Be that a house, car, boat, jewelry, guitar, a sport players T-shirt, or what have you. For most people a house is just a house. For others it a family heirloom, built and maintained for hundred of years by the same family. We don't generally repurpose objects in order to benefit the greatest number of people, and I doubt there is a very strong support for that.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago

solidsnack9000 5y ago

We don't have a housing crisis because of scarce jewelry that isn't being put to use -- and the same is true of luxury boats, fancy cars, and other luxury items. The issue is precisely that land is not a luxury item; but it is being treated like one, in that it's being used as a store of value.

imtringued 5y ago

>If we have that attitude to people owning things, then the first thing should be wealth tax on jewelry, cars, boats, and other luxury items which if you can't afford to pay the tax then you should be forced to sell it. That actually makes sense if you want to avoid price gouging and scalping over the short term. If you tax wealth then people will try to reduce the amount of wealth they have which is undesirable over the long term. If you tax land, people will reduce the amount of land they use, which is exactly what you want in an urban environment.