4 ms·

> They would like you (the users) to stop squabbling over stupid shit and causing drama so that they can spend their time writing more features and not have to

> They would like you (the users) to stop squabbling over stupid shit and causing drama so that they can spend their time writing more features and not have to adjudicate your stupid little fights. I don’t think so. I think they love the drama. They have more impressions and make more money from rage. The rage has to be over unimportant things so the status quo doesn’t change. They want people upset over the dumbest stuff possible and arguing all the time. They want people complaining about being banned or not banning people or whatever. This is he problem with social media. It makes more money to be loud and without value. If people are fulfilled and learn the answer to their question they stop. If they are angry and searching they go forever.

gorgoiler 5y ago
It’s really nice on HN when the administrators detach a reply from the main thread. Folks can carry on arguing about vim/emacs but the number of newcomers piling on drops away. Twitter, on the other hand, does this: #vimVSemacs is trending, click here to wade in!!
riffraff 5y ago
Hear hear! This is a beautiful and insightful thread which completely avoids talking about money. Not all social networks devolved into hate filled screaming fests, the main reason they do is because that drives engagement, which brings money, which makes stakeholders happy. This is the only reason that running Twitter as a private company owned by a single rich dude might make a difference.
pcurve 5y ago
I enjoyed reading it but I couldn’t get on aboard with his statement “ Because it is not TOPICS that are censored. It is BEHAVIOR” It’s both. In fact the most dangerous ideas to me are the ones that are discussed with perception of civility and factuality yet are patently false.
jamesrom 5y ago
And why is it _never_ the reason given by the censors? When topics are banned, some banal comment about verifiability or some other non-descript reason is given. It's never "we believe this is causing too much drama and might escalate to violence". I don't buy yishan's framing at all.
- refulgentis 5y ago
  I don't buy your framing more than I don't buy his, though his is sloppy: what "censors" have "banned" what topics?
  - rendall 5y ago
    Censors have banned these topics and people. Even if you agree with the censorship and banning, it still is censorship and banning. * Alex Jones and his Infowars website was banned by Apple, Facebook, YouTube, and Spotify. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-youtube-conspiracy-theories https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-yo... * Facebook routinely removed posts claiming that "COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured" https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-05-27-21/h_3868f66c95aad93295bdaab921559fef https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic... * Twitter and Facebook removed posts and banned people who shared the Daily News article about the Hunter Biden laptop https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/oct/14/facebook-twitter-new-york-post-hunter-biden https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/oct/14/facebook-... * Donald Trump deleted from Twitter and Facebook: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/05/06/twitter-facebook-trump-posts/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/05/06/twitter... * Apple, Google and Amazon suppressed conservative-leaning social network Parler https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/17/22440005/parler-apple-app-store-return-amazon-google-capitol https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/17/22440005/parler-apple-app... * Independent video journalist Jordan Chariton had his work censored and banned on YouTube: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-status-coup?s=r https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-status-coup?... * The White House helps Facebook flag "problematic posts": https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1415727354463281159 https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1415727354463281159 * Video criticizing Ivermectin removed (and reinstated, but still an example of censorship): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_42LVirfNI&lc=UgxSeQ2uKLo_mBFSbSp4AaABAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_42LVirfNI&lc=UgxSeQ2uKLo_m... * Josiah Zaynor's Gut Hack ODIN products removed from Amazon, Facebook, Patreon, PayPal, and Square. https://youtu.be/ox4hWCnDRXE https://youtu.be/ox4hWCnDRXE California brings suit against him https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/05/15/239116/celebrity-biohacker-josiah-zayner-is-under-investigation-for-practicing-medicine-without-a/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/05/15/239116/celebrity... His YouTube channel removed entirely for "sales of illegal or regulated goods" even though he did neither. * BMJ article https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 repeatedly banned by Facebook. https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635/rr-80 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635/rr-80 * MasterCard and Visa decide what porn you can watch: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-mastercards-new-porn-rules-should-scare-everyone?ref=author https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-mastercards-new-porn-rules... https://dailycaller.com/2022/03/09/porn-star-cheri-deville-discusses-credit-card-censorship/ https://dailycaller.com/2022/03/09/porn-star-cheri-deville-d... * EU bans RT and Sputnik https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/03/02/eu-imposes-sanctions-on-state-owned-outlets-rt-russia-today-and-sputnik-s-broadcasting-in-the-eu/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022... * Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, and YouTube bans all Russian state media https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/morrison-government-asks-facebook-twitter-and-google-to-block-russian-state-media-disinformation https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/morrison-gover... * YouTube demonetizes all Russian creators: https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1501808135006212096 https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1501808135006212096 * USG 20-year ban on photos of soldiers' coffins: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna29410258 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna29410258 * NYT on "America's Free Speech Problem" https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/opinion/cancel-culture-free-speech-poll.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/opinion/cancel-culture-fr... * Bret Weinstein forced out from his tenured position at Evergreen College and has now received two strikes (of three allowed, after which the channel will be deleted) on YouTube. One an interview with Dr. Pierre Kory about ivermectin, and the other and interview with Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-bret-weinstein?s=r https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-bret-weinste... These are only a few examples. There are many more.
jelliclesfarm 5y ago
You know what we did when someone was obnoxious during the glory days of BBS and IRC? We banned and kicked their sorry arse off the server. So everyone behaved. Kinda. And everyone..even kids..acted like adults. Or we dealt with it. And you know why it was glorious. The Internet was truly free. There was no money to be made there.
- jdrc 5y ago
  IRC was/is notoriously unfree because of that, i dont think it claimed any free speech creds, because its realtime nature means that spam or bad faith had to be removed immediately. plus the 'acted like adults' thing is not true, more like everyone acted like kids but at least fun kids.
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    I do agree with the Twitter thread that there is a generation gap. Those who remember the internet from quarter of a century ago weren’t treated like children. Even children. In the past 25 something years, young adults have regressed to looking for approval by authorities and PTBs because of their infantalisation at school and then college and then at work. No adult wants to adult anymore. Because their every need is being catered to by some kind of corporate power, they don’t even know that they are free to let go of the teat. I find all of this horrifying and depressing and infuriating. If one hasn’t had any agency in their adult life, how will one know when to shut up and when to protest. The cancel culture is the product of the state run education system…it is the utter helplessness and impotency of entire generations who had never had to make an independent evaluation or decision or judgement call. There is no redemption for this current generation and I dont see how the future generations can be rescued from this dismal fate. This also seems to be an uniquely American problem…Altho sadly it’s spreading to other parts of the world..mostly because of the internet and social media. Literally..who can be against free speech with a straight face? America‘s young generation..it looks like. The country has officially self destructed on the very values it stood for..very sad.
    - kuschku 5y ago

gorgoiler 5y ago

It’s really nice on HN when the administrators detach a reply from the main thread. Folks can carry on arguing about vim/emacs but the number of newcomers piling on drops away. Twitter, on the other hand, does this: #vimVSemacs is trending, click here to wade in!!

riffraff 5y ago

Hear hear! This is a beautiful and insightful thread which completely avoids talking about money. Not all social networks devolved into hate filled screaming fests, the main reason they do is because that drives engagement, which brings money, which makes stakeholders happy. This is the only reason that running Twitter as a private company owned by a single rich dude might make a difference.

pcurve 5y ago

I enjoyed reading it but I couldn’t get on aboard with his statement “ Because it is not TOPICS that are censored. It is BEHAVIOR” It’s both. In fact the most dangerous ideas to me are the ones that are discussed with perception of civility and factuality yet are patently false.

jamesrom 5y ago

And why is it _never_ the reason given by the censors? When topics are banned, some banal comment about verifiability or some other non-descript reason is given. It's never "we believe this is causing too much drama and might escalate to violence". I don't buy yishan's framing at all.

refulgentis 5y ago
I don't buy your framing more than I don't buy his, though his is sloppy: what "censors" have "banned" what topics?
- rendall 5y ago
  Censors have banned these topics and people. Even if you agree with the censorship and banning, it still is censorship and banning. * Alex Jones and his Infowars website was banned by Apple, Facebook, YouTube, and Spotify. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-youtube-conspiracy-theories https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-yo... * Facebook routinely removed posts claiming that "COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured" https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-05-27-21/h_3868f66c95aad93295bdaab921559fef https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic... * Twitter and Facebook removed posts and banned people who shared the Daily News article about the Hunter Biden laptop https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/oct/14/facebook-twitter-new-york-post-hunter-biden https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/oct/14/facebook-... * Donald Trump deleted from Twitter and Facebook: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/05/06/twitter-facebook-trump-posts/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/05/06/twitter... * Apple, Google and Amazon suppressed conservative-leaning social network Parler https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/17/22440005/parler-apple-app-store-return-amazon-google-capitol https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/17/22440005/parler-apple-app... * Independent video journalist Jordan Chariton had his work censored and banned on YouTube: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-status-coup?s=r https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-status-coup?... * The White House helps Facebook flag "problematic posts": https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1415727354463281159 https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1415727354463281159 * Video criticizing Ivermectin removed (and reinstated, but still an example of censorship): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_42LVirfNI&lc=UgxSeQ2uKLo_mBFSbSp4AaABAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_42LVirfNI&lc=UgxSeQ2uKLo_m... * Josiah Zaynor's Gut Hack ODIN products removed from Amazon, Facebook, Patreon, PayPal, and Square. https://youtu.be/ox4hWCnDRXE https://youtu.be/ox4hWCnDRXE California brings suit against him https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/05/15/239116/celebrity-biohacker-josiah-zayner-is-under-investigation-for-practicing-medicine-without-a/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/05/15/239116/celebrity... His YouTube channel removed entirely for "sales of illegal or regulated goods" even though he did neither. * BMJ article https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 repeatedly banned by Facebook. https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635/rr-80 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635/rr-80 * MasterCard and Visa decide what porn you can watch: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-mastercards-new-porn-rules-should-scare-everyone?ref=author https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-mastercards-new-porn-rules... https://dailycaller.com/2022/03/09/porn-star-cheri-deville-discusses-credit-card-censorship/ https://dailycaller.com/2022/03/09/porn-star-cheri-deville-d... * EU bans RT and Sputnik https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/03/02/eu-imposes-sanctions-on-state-owned-outlets-rt-russia-today-and-sputnik-s-broadcasting-in-the-eu/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022... * Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, and YouTube bans all Russian state media https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/morrison-government-asks-facebook-twitter-and-google-to-block-russian-state-media-disinformation https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/morrison-gover... * YouTube demonetizes all Russian creators: https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1501808135006212096 https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1501808135006212096 * USG 20-year ban on photos of soldiers' coffins: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna29410258 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna29410258 * NYT on "America's Free Speech Problem" https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/opinion/cancel-culture-free-speech-poll.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/opinion/cancel-culture-fr... * Bret Weinstein forced out from his tenured position at Evergreen College and has now received two strikes (of three allowed, after which the channel will be deleted) on YouTube. One an interview with Dr. Pierre Kory about ivermectin, and the other and interview with Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-bret-weinstein?s=r https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-bret-weinste... These are only a few examples. There are many more.

jelliclesfarm 5y ago

You know what we did when someone was obnoxious during the glory days of BBS and IRC? We banned and kicked their sorry arse off the server. So everyone behaved. Kinda. And everyone..even kids..acted like adults. Or we dealt with it. And you know why it was glorious. The Internet was truly free. There was no money to be made there.

jdrc 5y ago
IRC was/is notoriously unfree because of that, i dont think it claimed any free speech creds, because its realtime nature means that spam or bad faith had to be removed immediately. plus the 'acted like adults' thing is not true, more like everyone acted like kids but at least fun kids.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  I do agree with the Twitter thread that there is a generation gap. Those who remember the internet from quarter of a century ago weren’t treated like children. Even children. In the past 25 something years, young adults have regressed to looking for approval by authorities and PTBs because of their infantalisation at school and then college and then at work. No adult wants to adult anymore. Because their every need is being catered to by some kind of corporate power, they don’t even know that they are free to let go of the teat. I find all of this horrifying and depressing and infuriating. If one hasn’t had any agency in their adult life, how will one know when to shut up and when to protest. The cancel culture is the product of the state run education system…it is the utter helplessness and impotency of entire generations who had never had to make an independent evaluation or decision or judgement call. There is no redemption for this current generation and I dont see how the future generations can be rescued from this dismal fate. This also seems to be an uniquely American problem…Altho sadly it’s spreading to other parts of the world..mostly because of the internet and social media. Literally..who can be against free speech with a straight face? America‘s young generation..it looks like. The country has officially self destructed on the very values it stood for..very sad.
  - kuschku 5y ago