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The issue with Kernel development is that it's a dying profession. Nobody is interested in it. That's why there's an attempt with sexy new language, to bring mo

by oxff 5y ago

The issue with Kernel development is that it's a dying profession. Nobody is interested in it. That's why there's an attempt with sexy new language, to bring more developers to work on it. Probably less than 30 people in the world understand the thing as a holistic entity. From evolutionary terms, there's a giant risk of losing relevant technical knowledge to keep it up in the future. I do not support adding it to the Kernel, I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely, but I understand why they're looking at Rust.

zozbot234 5y ago
AIUI, you can still build a minimal kernel that's easily understood as a whole. And patches to shrink the minimal build even further are highly sought after because they expand the usability of Linux in deeply embedded environments.
unmole 5y ago
> That's why there's an attempt with sexy new language, to bring more developers to work on it. At no point did any active kernel developer express any such sentiment. Nobody is worried about not being unable to attract new blood.
- pohl 5y ago
  It's only spoken of in knowing glances, like Voldemort.
capableweb 5y ago
> Probably less than 30 people in the world understand the thing as a holistic entity As we only have two other "big" (popular) kernels to compare to this one, do you think they (Apple and Microsoft) have more people "holistically" understanding the entire kernel or less? Since the nature of those companies are closed-source, I'm fairly certain even less people understand those ones "holistically". > I do not support adding it to the Kernel, I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely, but I understand why they're looking at Rust. How would that work in reality? Re-use the existing tests to build a new kernel from scratch? Sounds like a very far-out idea that wouldn't help with any of the current problems, but I'm happy to entertain the idea and hear your reasoning here.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > How would that work in reality? Re-use the existing tests to build a new kernel from scratch? Sounds like a very far-out idea that wouldn't help with any of the current problems, but I'm happy to entertain the idea and hear your reasoning here. While I would tend to agree that a full production replacement would be such a massive undertaking as to be impractical, https://github.com/nuta/kerla https://github.com/nuta/kerla does something very like that - Linux userspace ABI on an all-new Rust kernel. (And even at this small scale, I find it mind-blowing that this worked)
- ImprobableTruth 5y ago
  Since they're complaining about maintainability, I assume they're advocating for microkernels?
jerf 5y ago
The kernel isn't dying, it's niche. It always has been and it always will be. Fortunately for the kernel, despite being niche, it has a rock-solid onramp forcing people to get into it. There will always be companies interested in the n'th degree of performance, both generally, and for some specific hardware. Someone has to go do the relevant kernel work for those things. So while you or I may never touch it, it is effectively impossible for a kernel like Linux to just rot away because nobody cares. It would require first a multi-year, if not multi-decade process of fading first.
- biorach 5y ago
  nice? It's on most of the smartphones on the planet. Plus it is the dominant server OS. Plus in the top 3 in many embedded categories (a highly diverse set of technologies)
  - teddyh 5y ago
    > It's on most of the smartphones on the planet. Sadly enough, probably not for long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system)
    - samhw 5y ago
      Haha, I heard another good one about a nun going into a bar..
      - teddyh 5y ago
        Even if Fuchsia is crapware, Google has the money to keep polishing that ball of mud, and eventually force it as the new version of Android, quality be damned. The rest of the world will have no recourse but to switch. It will be painful for quite a while, but people will survive. I mean, people survive using Windows, and not enough people switch away from that, either. I’m not saying that Fuchsia is necessarily bad, I’m saying that Google will do anything to get away from GPL code, including, if necessary, forcing Android to Fuchsia. It doesn’t actually matter if Fuchsia is any good.
biorach 5y ago
> The issue with Kernel development is that it's a dying profession. Nobody is interested in it. That's a pretty wild assertion and files in the face of the highly active kernel development process. e.g. > Linus has released 5.18-rc1 and closed the merge window for the 5.18 release... 13,207 non-merge changesets were merged during this merge window. https://lwn.net/Articles/890119/ https://lwn.net/Articles/890119/ > I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely That's the dumbest thing I've see on HN in some months. The kernel is deployed in hundreds of millions of devices worldwide and continues to be the dominant OS in many many sectors.
- oxff 5y ago
  The issue is about the # of new developers joining the development if you look at the Linux kernel development as an organization, not about # of non-merge changesets merged.
- staunch 5y ago
  > The kernel is deployed in hundreds of millions of devices... There are billions of Android phones alone. Not to mention the huge numbers of servers, IoT devices, embedded computers, and all the SBCs in my closet.
  - samhw 5y ago
    To be charitable, they may have meant something more like 'personal devices which people use directly'. (Though maybe not - it would be odd to exclude servers, which are one of Linux's biggest 'clients'. Perhaps they meant to exclude the more mundane types: routers, lightbulbs, etc.)
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    That Linux kernel is full of Google specifics, uses a microkernel like architecture since Project Treble, can be compiled since years with clang, now uses Rust for Bluetooth drivers,...
    - staunch 5y ago
sophacles 5y ago
Oh no. We have some early career devs that put up patches to the kernel recently. They were super excited about getting to do that work, and it was a big day for them - as it should be it's awesome. I guess I need to go let them know they are Nobodies. oxff said so.
School-Cotton 5y ago
> I do not support adding it to the Kernel, I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely What would you use instead?
LeFantome 5y ago
There may not be many “big and professional” operating system projects but, at the hobby level, it seems that there is a lot of interest in kernel dev actually. HaikuOS, SerenityOS, Redox, and ReactOS are all going strong. The BSDs continue to advance as well. Redox is written in Rust even. I believe Google sees Fuschia as a true Linux competitor. When you say “we should just throw away the kernel entirely”, what are you suggesting?
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> The issue with Kernel development is that it's a dying profession. Nobody is interested in it. That's simply false. I'd love to work on the kernel. I have immense respect for the people who work on it. Only reason I haven't tried contributing code is I don't think I'm skilled enough.
phendrenad2 5y ago
> 30 people in the world understand the thing as a holistic entity Probably a lot more than 30. There are probably more than 30 PhD students studying kernels at this very minute. However, I think you're right that no one is interested. People greatly underestimate the effect the kernel has on the full OS. They think it's "just" the kernel. This is why so many people keep saying that Windows will get a Linux kernel in Windows 10, no, 11, no, 12, etc. It's just a "kernel", like a grain of corn, something insignificant. So there isn't much interest in working on kernels. It's as unsexy as it gets.

by oxff 5y ago

zozbot234 5y ago

AIUI, you can still build a minimal kernel that's easily understood as a whole. And patches to shrink the minimal build even further are highly sought after because they expand the usability of Linux in deeply embedded environments.

unmole 5y ago

> That's why there's an attempt with sexy new language, to bring more developers to work on it. At no point did any active kernel developer express any such sentiment. Nobody is worried about not being unable to attract new blood.

pohl 5y ago
It's only spoken of in knowing glances, like Voldemort.

capableweb 5y ago

> Probably less than 30 people in the world understand the thing as a holistic entity As we only have two other "big" (popular) kernels to compare to this one, do you think they (Apple and Microsoft) have more people "holistically" understanding the entire kernel or less? Since the nature of those companies are closed-source, I'm fairly certain even less people understand those ones "holistically". > I do not support adding it to the Kernel, I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely, but I understand why they're looking at Rust. How would that work in reality? Re-use the existing tests to build a new kernel from scratch? Sounds like a very far-out idea that wouldn't help with any of the current problems, but I'm happy to entertain the idea and hear your reasoning here.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> How would that work in reality? Re-use the existing tests to build a new kernel from scratch? Sounds like a very far-out idea that wouldn't help with any of the current problems, but I'm happy to entertain the idea and hear your reasoning here. While I would tend to agree that a full production replacement would be such a massive undertaking as to be impractical, https://github.com/nuta/kerla https://github.com/nuta/kerla does something very like that - Linux userspace ABI on an all-new Rust kernel. (And even at this small scale, I find it mind-blowing that this worked)
ImprobableTruth 5y ago
Since they're complaining about maintainability, I assume they're advocating for microkernels?

jerf 5y ago

The kernel isn't dying, it's niche. It always has been and it always will be. Fortunately for the kernel, despite being niche, it has a rock-solid onramp forcing people to get into it. There will always be companies interested in the n'th degree of performance, both generally, and for some specific hardware. Someone has to go do the relevant kernel work for those things. So while you or I may never touch it, it is effectively impossible for a kernel like Linux to just rot away because nobody cares. It would require first a multi-year, if not multi-decade process of fading first.

biorach 5y ago
nice? It's on most of the smartphones on the planet. Plus it is the dominant server OS. Plus in the top 3 in many embedded categories (a highly diverse set of technologies)
- teddyh 5y ago
  > It's on most of the smartphones on the planet. Sadly enough, probably not for long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system)
  - samhw 5y ago
    Haha, I heard another good one about a nun going into a bar..
    - teddyh 5y ago
      Even if Fuchsia is crapware, Google has the money to keep polishing that ball of mud, and eventually force it as the new version of Android, quality be damned. The rest of the world will have no recourse but to switch. It will be painful for quite a while, but people will survive. I mean, people survive using Windows, and not enough people switch away from that, either. I’m not saying that Fuchsia is necessarily bad, I’m saying that Google will do anything to get away from GPL code, including, if necessary, forcing Android to Fuchsia. It doesn’t actually matter if Fuchsia is any good.

biorach 5y ago

> The issue with Kernel development is that it's a dying profession. Nobody is interested in it. That's a pretty wild assertion and files in the face of the highly active kernel development process. e.g. > Linus has released 5.18-rc1 and closed the merge window for the 5.18 release... 13,207 non-merge changesets were merged during this merge window. https://lwn.net/Articles/890119/ https://lwn.net/Articles/890119/ > I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely That's the dumbest thing I've see on HN in some months. The kernel is deployed in hundreds of millions of devices worldwide and continues to be the dominant OS in many many sectors.

oxff 5y ago
The issue is about the # of new developers joining the development if you look at the Linux kernel development as an organization, not about # of non-merge changesets merged.
staunch 5y ago
> The kernel is deployed in hundreds of millions of devices... There are billions of Android phones alone. Not to mention the huge numbers of servers, IoT devices, embedded computers, and all the SBCs in my closet.
- samhw 5y ago
  To be charitable, they may have meant something more like 'personal devices which people use directly'. (Though maybe not - it would be odd to exclude servers, which are one of Linux's biggest 'clients'. Perhaps they meant to exclude the more mundane types: routers, lightbulbs, etc.)
- pjmlp 5y ago
  That Linux kernel is full of Google specifics, uses a microkernel like architecture since Project Treble, can be compiled since years with clang, now uses Rust for Bluetooth drivers,...
  - staunch 5y ago

sophacles 5y ago

Oh no. We have some early career devs that put up patches to the kernel recently. They were super excited about getting to do that work, and it was a big day for them - as it should be it's awesome. I guess I need to go let them know they are Nobodies. oxff said so.

School-Cotton 5y ago

> I do not support adding it to the Kernel, I think we should just throw away the kernel entirely What would you use instead?

LeFantome 5y ago

There may not be many “big and professional” operating system projects but, at the hobby level, it seems that there is a lot of interest in kernel dev actually. HaikuOS, SerenityOS, Redox, and ReactOS are all going strong. The BSDs continue to advance as well. Redox is written in Rust even. I believe Google sees Fuschia as a true Linux competitor. When you say “we should just throw away the kernel entirely”, what are you suggesting?

matheusmoreira 5y ago

> The issue with Kernel development is that it's a dying profession. Nobody is interested in it. That's simply false. I'd love to work on the kernel. I have immense respect for the people who work on it. Only reason I haven't tried contributing code is I don't think I'm skilled enough.

phendrenad2 5y ago

> 30 people in the world understand the thing as a holistic entity Probably a lot more than 30. There are probably more than 30 PhD students studying kernels at this very minute. However, I think you're right that no one is interested. People greatly underestimate the effect the kernel has on the full OS. They think it's "just" the kernel. This is why so many people keep saying that Windows will get a Linux kernel in Windows 10, no, 11, no, 12, etc. It's just a "kernel", like a grain of corn, something insignificant. So there isn't much interest in working on kernels. It's as unsexy as it gets.