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>Remote also greatly enhances the talent pool available for employers. It reduces cost too. Neither of these things are good for an employee. A world where no

>Remote also greatly enhances the talent pool available for employers. It reduces cost too. Neither of these things are good for an employee. A world where none of your coworkers have any shared background with you or where you can lose an interview at a local company to someone 700 miles away sounds like hell.

Brian_K_White 4y ago
It's double edges all the way around. "shared background" has certainly been the cause of a lot of harm. It's one of those things that people want, but which is bad, like "Everything be more efficient if everyone would stop wasting time on their own different ideas and just did what I want.". There are no single simple correct answers.
- Crabber 4y ago
  >"shared background" has certainly been the cause of a lot of harm Do you have an example?
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    Shared background can be a good thing and can apply to good things, but it is also the basis of all discrimination, tribalism, prejudice, or even at it's most benign, inconsideration or ignorance. The examples are the rule and it's instead hard to think of any exceptions.
imiric 4y ago
> A world where none of your coworkers have any shared background with you So you're against diversity? Differing backgrounds and points of view can only be a good thing. For coworkers, for the product, for the company. I know it's en vogue now, but it really is important. > where you can lose an interview at a local company to someone 700 miles away Hiring is not zero-sum. With the current and likely future dev market, there's enough jobs for everyone. Companies should consider applicants regardless of location of residence, and offer the same compensation as well.
- Crabber 4y ago
  I think diversity has been pushed on the workplace because it massively opens up the labor supply and allows companies to plummet wages. As a native worker of a country it is completely against your self-interest to advocate for such changes. All of the pro-diversity platitudes like "diversity is a strength" are never justified with data, they're just said as truisms you're supposed to blindly believe and repeat. Why does nobody ever talk about how homogeneity is a strength? The comradery you used to have in mining villages where all workers had a tightly shared heritage and all grew up together was probably the strongest workforce you could hope for. But workers with those kinds of strong bonds do scary things like forming unions and going on strike, we don't want any of that! And that's why Amazon tracks lack of workplace diversity as a metric for risk of union formation :)
  - imiric 4y ago
    > Why does nobody ever talk about how homogeneity is a strength? The comradery you used to have in mining villages As I'm sure you're aware, software development is very different from physical labor. For one, it's a creative endeavor, where different points of view stemming from different backgrounds can only have a positive effect on the end product. Think of it in terms of code reviews. Does the product benefit more from being reviewed by teammates from the same schools and employment backgrounds, or by ones with different life and professional experiences? I can't point to any studies to prove this, but from personal experience I'd argue it's the latter. Besides, getting to know people from different backgrounds and cultures can only expand your own view points and make you a better developer and person. Your point about companies pushing diversity to prevent unions sounds conspiratorial at best. Strong bonds can and do form regardless of culture.
    - Crabber 4y ago
      >For one, it's a creative endeavor, where different points of view stemming from different backgrounds can only have a positive effect on the end product. I'd say it's far more engineering than creative. You're writing code to meet the specifications of a client. I don't think the race of the person writing that code makes a difference. >Does the product benefit more from being reviewed by teammates from the same schools and employment backgrounds, or by ones with different life and professional experiences It benefits from being reviewed by people who have lots of experience writing different types of software. Which has nothing to do with ethnic diversity. >Besides, getting to know people from different backgrounds and cultures can only expand your own view points and make you a better developer Meaningless platitude, unless you can back this up with data >Your point about companies pushing diversity to prevent unions sounds conspiratorial at best. https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61403 https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61403
mping 4y ago
My company has employees all around Europe, and in north America too. Funny enough, even without the shared background, we kinda draw from the same principles and have a common understanding on how to behave an operate. A world where I have to work with what the local market offers sounds like russian roulette. I don't want to be constrained by where my parents decided to live.
eddieroger 4y ago
> lose an interview at a local company to someone 700 miles away sounds like hell I'd feel pretty terrible about my ability if one of the best things about me was proximity to a building. I live in the midwest and I like it in the midwest, and I'm quite happy with a ~future~ present where I'm competing with people around the world for a job I want and not stuck to the one of the 10 or so places I could do my kind of work here.
- Crabber 4y ago
  What a toxic mindset. You might be in the top 1%, but 99% of people aren't. Not everyone is able to compete globally against 3 billion other people. Most people are unexceptional and average. And that's okay. Those are the workers keep the world moving forward. It is perfectly okay to just be the best person at something in your town or local area. Telling people "you should feel pretty terrible about your ability if you aren't one of the best people in the world" is telling 99.99% of the population they should feel forever worthless.
  - practice9 4y ago
    Celebrating mediocrity while being privileged enough to make lots of $$$ is the definition of toxic mindset. IMO, if a person somewhere in the world is better qualified for the job than me - it's ok. They worked hard to get where they are and their work should be compensated fairly.
  - _proofs 4y ago
    > Telling people "you should feel pretty terrible about your ability if you aren't one of the best people in the world" is telling 99.99% of the population they should feel forever worthless. but he did not say this at all. not even literally. you merely think he implied it, which is still a leap, since all this person described to you was how they personally internalize their work. your disdain for competition makes it harder to read.
    - eddieroger 4y ago
      I appreciate this reply and most definitely do not think I’m in the 1% if anything, let alone the talent pool. I come from a town that wasn’t a tech center growing up (and still isn’t, though we have some logos now), and am largely self-taught. I just like playing with computers and am lucky to have made a job doing that, and am glad to live in a time where I can do something I love, somewhere I love, but for companies not necessarily here. My only point was that if my best qualification was proximity, I’d feel pretty unaccomplished, but the flip side of that is that I welcome the challenge to apply for jobs that are far more challenging than I’d otherwise have access to.
mbrodersen 4y ago
It sounds like heaven to me.

Brian_K_White 4y ago

It's double edges all the way around. "shared background" has certainly been the cause of a lot of harm. It's one of those things that people want, but which is bad, like "Everything be more efficient if everyone would stop wasting time on their own different ideas and just did what I want.". There are no single simple correct answers.

Crabber 4y ago
>"shared background" has certainly been the cause of a lot of harm Do you have an example?
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  Shared background can be a good thing and can apply to good things, but it is also the basis of all discrimination, tribalism, prejudice, or even at it's most benign, inconsideration or ignorance. The examples are the rule and it's instead hard to think of any exceptions.

imiric 4y ago

> A world where none of your coworkers have any shared background with you So you're against diversity? Differing backgrounds and points of view can only be a good thing. For coworkers, for the product, for the company. I know it's en vogue now, but it really is important. > where you can lose an interview at a local company to someone 700 miles away Hiring is not zero-sum. With the current and likely future dev market, there's enough jobs for everyone. Companies should consider applicants regardless of location of residence, and offer the same compensation as well.

Crabber 4y ago
I think diversity has been pushed on the workplace because it massively opens up the labor supply and allows companies to plummet wages. As a native worker of a country it is completely against your self-interest to advocate for such changes. All of the pro-diversity platitudes like "diversity is a strength" are never justified with data, they're just said as truisms you're supposed to blindly believe and repeat. Why does nobody ever talk about how homogeneity is a strength? The comradery you used to have in mining villages where all workers had a tightly shared heritage and all grew up together was probably the strongest workforce you could hope for. But workers with those kinds of strong bonds do scary things like forming unions and going on strike, we don't want any of that! And that's why Amazon tracks lack of workplace diversity as a metric for risk of union formation :)
- imiric 4y ago
  > Why does nobody ever talk about how homogeneity is a strength? The comradery you used to have in mining villages As I'm sure you're aware, software development is very different from physical labor. For one, it's a creative endeavor, where different points of view stemming from different backgrounds can only have a positive effect on the end product. Think of it in terms of code reviews. Does the product benefit more from being reviewed by teammates from the same schools and employment backgrounds, or by ones with different life and professional experiences? I can't point to any studies to prove this, but from personal experience I'd argue it's the latter. Besides, getting to know people from different backgrounds and cultures can only expand your own view points and make you a better developer and person. Your point about companies pushing diversity to prevent unions sounds conspiratorial at best. Strong bonds can and do form regardless of culture.
  - Crabber 4y ago
    >For one, it's a creative endeavor, where different points of view stemming from different backgrounds can only have a positive effect on the end product. I'd say it's far more engineering than creative. You're writing code to meet the specifications of a client. I don't think the race of the person writing that code makes a difference. >Does the product benefit more from being reviewed by teammates from the same schools and employment backgrounds, or by ones with different life and professional experiences It benefits from being reviewed by people who have lots of experience writing different types of software. Which has nothing to do with ethnic diversity. >Besides, getting to know people from different backgrounds and cultures can only expand your own view points and make you a better developer Meaningless platitude, unless you can back this up with data >Your point about companies pushing diversity to prevent unions sounds conspiratorial at best. https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61403 https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61403

mping 4y ago

My company has employees all around Europe, and in north America too. Funny enough, even without the shared background, we kinda draw from the same principles and have a common understanding on how to behave an operate. A world where I have to work with what the local market offers sounds like russian roulette. I don't want to be constrained by where my parents decided to live.

eddieroger 4y ago

> lose an interview at a local company to someone 700 miles away sounds like hell I'd feel pretty terrible about my ability if one of the best things about me was proximity to a building. I live in the midwest and I like it in the midwest, and I'm quite happy with a ~future~ present where I'm competing with people around the world for a job I want and not stuck to the one of the 10 or so places I could do my kind of work here.

Crabber 4y ago
What a toxic mindset. You might be in the top 1%, but 99% of people aren't. Not everyone is able to compete globally against 3 billion other people. Most people are unexceptional and average. And that's okay. Those are the workers keep the world moving forward. It is perfectly okay to just be the best person at something in your town or local area. Telling people "you should feel pretty terrible about your ability if you aren't one of the best people in the world" is telling 99.99% of the population they should feel forever worthless.
- practice9 4y ago
  Celebrating mediocrity while being privileged enough to make lots of $$$ is the definition of toxic mindset. IMO, if a person somewhere in the world is better qualified for the job than me - it's ok. They worked hard to get where they are and their work should be compensated fairly.
- _proofs 4y ago
  > Telling people "you should feel pretty terrible about your ability if you aren't one of the best people in the world" is telling 99.99% of the population they should feel forever worthless. but he did not say this at all. not even literally. you merely think he implied it, which is still a leap, since all this person described to you was how they personally internalize their work. your disdain for competition makes it harder to read.
  - eddieroger 4y ago
    I appreciate this reply and most definitely do not think I’m in the 1% if anything, let alone the talent pool. I come from a town that wasn’t a tech center growing up (and still isn’t, though we have some logos now), and am largely self-taught. I just like playing with computers and am lucky to have made a job doing that, and am glad to live in a time where I can do something I love, somewhere I love, but for companies not necessarily here. My only point was that if my best qualification was proximity, I’d feel pretty unaccomplished, but the flip side of that is that I welcome the challenge to apply for jobs that are far more challenging than I’d otherwise have access to.

mbrodersen 4y ago

It sounds like heaven to me.