14 ms·

Barbary Pirates and English Slaves (2017)

156 points by zeristor 5y ago

seibelj 5y ago
If you like podcasts check out Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History episode on slavery https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-history/id173001861?i=1000553133741 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-h... And Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast (season 4) on the Haitian revolution https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/revolutions/id703889772?i=1000358493623 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/revolutions/id70388977... Slavery is an ancient and extremely complex topic. While it is certainly a moral evil there are very few heroes we can point to as moral saviors by modern standards. African kingdoms themselves sold their rivals into slavery en masse. Anyone who says the modern world is a horror show has no idea how good they have it.
- PradeetPatel 5y ago
  Precisely, it always gets me when many workers in the US are calling their work environment "slavery", doing so ultimately undermines and trivialises the horror our ancestors went through. I, for one, am glad that such barbaric practice has been more or less abolished.
  - indigochill 5y ago
    > I, for one, am glad that such barbaric practice has been more or less abolished. Well, yes and no. Human trafficking is still big business even in the states (worldwide, the State Department estimates 24.9 million trafficked persons at any given time - domestically, there were for example over 1,500 reported cases in California in 2019). It's just underground now.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      Is human trafficking strictly slavery/coercive, or does it lump in all smuggling of sex workers, irrespective of the presence of consent/willingness?
      - zdragnar 5y ago
        Slavery is alive and well in the world today, and is not simply limited to sex trafficking. According to https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/human-trafficking-numbers#:~:text=An%20estimated%2024.9%20million%20victims,place%20in%20many%20different%20industries https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/human-trafficking-.... Only about 20% are sexually exploited, with the majority used for labor.
- kristopolous 5y ago
  ... Deleted
  - namdnay 5y ago
    ???
    - kristopolous 5y ago
      I deleted it. It's really not my place to say that
      - Fargoan 5y ago
        Say what?
        kristopolous 5y ago
        I spoke poorly of someone. I'm trying to be more sensitive to potentially neurodivergent people so pardon me for leaving it here.
- Simon_O_Rourke 5y ago
  > Anyone who says the modern world is a horror show has no idea how good they have it. The modern world is still a horror show. We've just dialed back the barbarity from 100 to 98. Only now we tend to know more about what's going on in the world. And even then you can turn off the tragedy and suffering on the nightly news and happily watch Jeopardy! And to misquote Gibbon - "our sympathy is cold to the relation of distant misery".
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  "Anyone who says the modern world is a horror show has no idea how good they have it." Depends on your actual location. Modern democracies were able to tame the worst human instincts down. But Mariupol 2022 will likely enter the pantheon of worst horrors in history. Nothing good about that.
  - prepend 5y ago
    This doesn’t mean that nothing bad happens today, but that it’s nothing compared to past atrocities. Of course Mariupol is horrible and I feel empathy for the people there. It must be horrible. And I’m sure it’s no comfort to them that Mariupol isn’t as bad as past things. But it is a comfort to the rest of the world that Mariupol isn’t as bad as stuff like Alexander’s siege of Tyre over 2000 years ago [0]. And that Mariupol will not be remembered in the list of world horrors. It’s unlikely anyone will be linking to Mariupol in 2000 years. And let’s be thankful that it doesn’t get worse than it currently is. And that we help the people of Mariupol. [0] after capture everyone in the city was murdered, crucified, or sold into slavery https://www.worldhistory.org/article/107/alexanders-siege-of-tyre-332-bce/ https://www.worldhistory.org/article/107/alexanders-siege-of...
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      True, the warfare of Antiquity was something else entirely.
davidw 5y ago
The US war with those states features in this book about the founding of the US navy. Interesting read. "Six Frigates: The Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy" - https://www.amazon.com/Six-Frigates-Epic-History-Founding/dp/039333032X/ https://www.amazon.com/Six-Frigates-Epic-History-Founding/dp...
kristopolous 5y ago
There's also a "Barbary coast" referring to a red light district in San Francisco that was established after the gold rush and more or less died around the depression (I'll be putting out a multipart podcast on the history of it and how it helped lead to the Beat generation of City Lights, the culture of alternative lifestyles and Barbrook's "the California Ideology" starting in about a week or so - and yes, for history nerds I know the more proper arc is a PNW agglomeration, but I'm doing a pinhead focus to have a narrative flow tolerable to general audiences) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast,_San_Francisco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast,_San_Francisco Here's a quote about the district from 1876 (excuse the colorful language) "The Barbary Coast is the haunt of the low and the vile of every kind. The petty thief, the house burglar, the tramp, the whoremonger, lewd women, cutthroats, murderers, all are found here. Dance-halls and concert-saloons, where blear-eyed men and faded women drink vile liquor, smoke offensive tobacco, engage in vulgar conduct, sing obscene songs and say and do everything to heap upon themselves more degradation, are numerous. Low gambling houses, thronged with riot-loving rowdies, in all stages of intoxication, are there. Opium dens, where heathen Chinese and God-forsaken men and women are sprawled in miscellaneous confusion, disgustingly drowsy or completely overcome, are there. Licentiousness, debauchery, pollution, loathsome disease, insanity from dissipation, misery, poverty, wealth, profanity, blasphemy, and death, are there. And Hell, yawning to receive the putrid mass, is there also." - Asbury, in Benjamin Estelle Lloyd's Lights and Shades of San Francisco (1876) (full excerpt https://archive.org/details/lightsshadesinsa00lloy/page/78/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/lightsshadesinsa00lloy/page/78/m...)
- pm90 5y ago
  Sounds like an amazing place tbh. I’m assuming writers of the time exaggerated things a little.
  - kristopolous 5y ago
    The lawless Western town that needs a new sheriff around is a composite sketch of various places, one of which was the Barbary coast. For instance let's go to a 1872 San Francisco chronicle article, "A Vigorous Check to Street Ruffianism The King of the Hoodlums Gets 415 Days in the County Jail--Juvenile Burglars--On the Barbary Coast" It's a long quote but it's a good read "...Judge Louderback in sentencing him made the following remarks: "Riley, you were born a bad man. You are one of the worst criminals at present in this city. You have appeared before the Court on all kinds of charges-vulgar and profane language, assault and battery, vagrancy, grand larceny, petty larceny, housebreaking, burglary and robbery. Citizens have refused to make complaints against you for fear you would indict some injury upon them. Men have begged officers not to subpoena them as witnesses against you for the same reason. Wives have entreated officers not to subpoena their husbands, one even going down upon her knees, for fear that you would murder her husband or commit some outrage upon his property. Wherever you have been you have proved yourself a terror to men, women and children. Your deeds of violence have acquired for you the infamous title of King of the Hoodlums." Amazing...There's a fairly decent ~400 page 1933 book on the place named "The Barbary coast; an informal history of the San Francisco underworld" available at https://archive.org/details/barbarycoastinfo00asbu https://archive.org/details/barbarycoastinfo00asbu And an Edward G Robinson (from "Little Caesar", inventor of the movie gangster) movie about it in 1935: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0026097 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0026097 It's lost in the collective consciousness. There's stuff we'd find pretty hilarious looking at the archives. For instance, the city sent clergy to investigate the infidelity of the place in 1910. For another colorful example, let's take a San Francisco chronicle article from October 8 1912 "Clergy denounces morale of city: Barbary Coast and Saloons Scored at Meeting of Juvenile Society" "Vice conditions in San Francisco, particularly as presented by the Barbary Coast, were the subject of an address last night by Rev. Father Terrance... "The climax of this iniquity." said the speaker, after telling about the dives in the Barbary Coast district, "Is rapped by the rapidly-multiplying dancing grills, where the dance steps indulged in are obscene, animal movements that would not be countenanced in the dominion of the Sultan at Constantinople. We have asked the Police Commissioners to separate drinking and dancing, as they have the power to do. If they fall us we must plan to carry the fight further. It is time that San Francisco ceased to be a by-word." This spirit of San Francisco was born of the Barbary Coast
lifeisstillgood 5y ago
As an Englishman I had no idea that Barbary Coast slavers (that I had heard of) raided on land in the UK. As this was taking place at the same time as those communities were involved in the Africa / Americas trade just seems to say you cannot contain evil.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  And also, that evil is everywhere, not just at home.
- alpinemeadow 5y ago
  Have you seen these numbers ? https://www.slavevoyages.org/assessment/estimates?selected_tab=timeline https://www.slavevoyages.org/assessment/estimates?selected_t... (Edit spelling )
  - smcl 5y ago
    I don't think this person is trying to say "these are exactly the same". Only the hardest-right people try to diminish the transatlantic slave trade by saying that other groups did it than the white colonial powers. The comment to me seemed more "Huh, today I learned..." than that.
    - dmurray 5y ago
      There's a chilling effect at the moment where you can't say "huh, today I learned" about anything that might be a right-wing talking point without risk of being treated as some kind of White supremacist yourself.
      - smcl 5y ago
        It's not so chilling or new - people have been misunderstanding each other for millenia. And here on HN at least, if commenters follow the comment guidelines we should be alright. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
giorgioz 5y ago
TIMELINES: Barbary Slave Trade 1500–1800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade Atlantic Slave Trade 1500-1800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade Abolition of Slavery from Britain 1807 and 1833 The Abolition of Slavery in Britain happened in 1807 making illegal to purchase slaves from Africa and then in 1833 stopping slavery in the Caribbean. https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Abolition-Of-Slavery/ https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Aboli...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ttyprintk 5y ago
  I feel like, roughly speaking, the first Atlantic system started off quite small because Native Americans were slave labor starting with Columbus. The second Atlantic system passed Barbary slaving. Import into the US was banned in 1808.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    Wasn't it at the beginning mostly indentured servants from Europe?
    - ttyprintk 5y ago
      Africans until the early seventeenth century arrived as indentured servants. This occasionally comes up in the lineage of guests on the PBS show Finding Your Roots. Indentured servants from Europe plus political deportations might have outnumbered Africans. I’ve heard this is true at least in the Caribbean. In my family, our origin could be Scotland or Ireland; both populations were called Irish at the time.
peter_retief 5y ago
The Vikings also captured and sold people into slavery, Dublin was a slave trading post setup by the Vikings. Also captured Slavic peoples from Europe from which the term slave comes. Christianity stopped slavery.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Considering that it was Christian nations that enslaved more people in recent history, and the longest, you might want to rethink your last sentence. And you might read up on serfdom, a hallmark in European feudalism.
  - livinginfear 5y ago
    [citation needed] This is total nonsense. In modern times it's Christian, largely European nations where slavery has not flourished. Check the data for yourself. Slavery is alive and well in many parts of the world. In many cultures it's hardly even controversial. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17... https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Serfdom, which survived until the 18th century where I live, is rather different from chattel slavery. Serfs were tied to land, not to their masters. (It reminds you of the internal passport system of the USSR.) They therefore had local culture, uninterrupted traditions going back centuries, and families could not simply be torn apart by selling someone away. "Breeding" serfs for profit wasn't a thing either; everybody who was born in a certain village had to be sustained there. Young serfs could be recruited into the army and gain social status. And as a noble, you couldn't just import more serfs from abroad for money. You had to make do with what you had, which meant at least somewhat better treatment. What serfdom has in common with slavery is the fact that industrialization killed off both of them. Industry required a large and moveable work force. I am not insinuating that being a serf was enjoyable, but if I had to choose between serfdom and slavery, that would be no contest.
Clepsydra 5y ago
The slavers even went as far north as Iceland: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Abductions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Abductions
kewrkewm53 5y ago
There should be more discussion about these forgotten forms of slave trade. People tend to think about just the transatlantic slavery when they hear the word, but reality the transatlantic slavers just scaled up and spread an existing way of doing business. Interestingly enough, Crimea used to be a major center of slave trade all the way into 1700s. Christians were sold to Islamic world and vice versa. https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/ https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnis...
- fsloth 5y ago
  Focusing on the atlantic slave trade is understandable in US as that's very foundational there. I just hope US people would realize allmost none of their North-American cultural tropes are applicable elsewhere as a foundation for anything, really. Example: I am a finn. A middle class male in a high income country. What this means is: I am of the indigeneous population in this country (one of the population surges after the ice age). My kin where hunted as slaves and sold to asian slave markets. Finland never participated in the colonial era except as a dirt poor third world economy to be exploited. There is xenophobia and racism as elsewhere, but there is no historical past we should be particularly ashamed off. If I were to come to US I presume I would be categorized based on my skin color in the "population whose ancestors benefitted from an inhuman trade" where as the truth would be "whose ancestors were the oppressed". I don't find it insulting or anything, but I do get the sense that the strength of the US tropes would make it impossible to discuss this in US context without myself being labeled a white power supremacist or something worse.
  - Thorentis 5y ago
    Unfortunately, along with Hollywood and other culture, the US thanks to the Internet also exports its political and social issues to the world. It has reached the point that "white people" are now considered the oppressors of every country, regardless of whether those people are indeed the indigenous population of the country. It is even more absurd in the UK, where in fact multiple groups of white people were successively displaced by conquest (Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc), and yet collectively, "Anglo Saxons" are perceived as oppressors, even if many decend from a group of people who were themselves oppressed.
tragomaskhalos 5y ago
Those Cornish communities had it rough - Mousehole (pron. 'mauzul') was one of the villages that was also subjected to ruinous raiding by the Spanish in the late 16c; they will show you buildings still standing with the walls pockmarked by musket balls (although this cynic wonders at whether an awl and a vivid imagination may equally be at work here)
jl6 5y ago
Man, Hollywood PR has done some fine brand image work on pirates in the last century or so (greenswashing?). “Pirate” today conjures the image of a dashing rogue standing up to power. The murder, rape and slaving really get swept under the carpet.
- hef19898 5y ago
  As does the fact that caribean pirates formed a democratic government at one point. At the same time naval practices, from sodomie to whipping, isn't talked about a lot neither. You uave a point so, Hollywood has a tendency of portraying romantic aspects when it comes to history.
  - foldr 5y ago
    It's 'sodomy'. Reminds me of this classic: https://nyupress.org/9780814712351/sodomy-and-the-pirate-tradition/ https://nyupress.org/9780814712351/sodomy-and-the-pirate-tra...
  - ransom1538 5y ago
    Pirates were complicated in the 15-17th century. They were usually backed by a kingdom. As a captain one way to get rich was to be given a "pirate pass" - in which you could terrorize shipping from from other hostile kingdoms. Example below. As a pirate you wanted a place where you could restock - so they would answer to and work for kingdoms that were expanding in the new world. The most treasured ships (in the entire world ) were leaving from south america so full of stolen gold they would often sink. That is why you see movies of pirates in the gulf of mexico. But honestly every nation had them - they operated throughout the known world. One of the coolest 16th century castles - was created to stop pirates raiding spanish shipping in Florida. It is amazing with an amazing history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_San_Marcos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_San_Marcos John Paul Jones was the first "American Pirate". He worked for the US / France and would raid british shipping. https://museeprotestant.org/en/notice/huguenot-pirates-in-the-17th-century/ https://museeprotestant.org/en/notice/huguenot-pirates-in-th... The treaty of Tordesillas on the 7th of June 1494 declared that lands lying beyond the Atlantic Ocean, whether discovered in the past or the future, were to be shared uniquely between Spain and Portugal. In addition, Pope Alexander VI gave his approval in a papal bull. This treaty did not receive the agreement of France or England and they were all the more offended by it because soon after this, the Spanish refused to allow any other nation to tradewith their American colonies. It was in such circumstances as this that both France and England allowed their corsairs to attack Spanish vessels in Europe and the West Indies, with the justification that they had letters giving official permission from their government, although these papers were sometimes false. Indeed, sometimes the politicians actively encouraged such ventures.
nanis 5y ago
The Mediterranean between the 1500s and the 1900s is a very interesting place with a lot of interesting shades of gray. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinan_Reis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinan_Reis > Sinan sailed under the famed Ottoman admiral Hayreddin Barbarossa at the 1538 Battle of Preveza against Charles' Imperial fleet and its commander, Andrea Doria. Sinan suggested landing troops at Actium on the Gulf of Arta near Preveza, an idea which Barbarossa initially opposed, but which later proved to be important for securing the Ottoman victory. > Around 1540, Sinan's son was traveling by sea to meet him after one of Sinan's victories. The boy was taken captive by Emperor Charles' forces and was ultimately handed over to the Lord of Elba, who baptized him and raised him at court. Barbarossa made several unsuccessful attempts to ransom Sinan's son. While sailing nearby in 1544, Barbarossa sent an envoy to Elba to again attempt to free the boy. The island's Lord replied that his "religious scruples forbade him to surrender a baptized Christian to an infidel". Infuriated, Barbarossa landed men at Piombino, sacked the town, and blew up the fort, after which the ruler agreed to release his "boy-favorite".
- biztos 5y ago
  TIL there was an Ottoman Barbarossa[0] in addition to the German one[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Empero...
cm2187 5y ago
Drachinifel has an interesting video about the barbary states for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSBmGaLt5OU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSBmGaLt5OU
the__alchemist 5y ago
For an epic of a fictional take, the Barbary pirates, and their slaving, play a significant role in The 8-book series The Baroque Cycle - especially the middle few books. One of the main characters ends up on an epic journey, catalyzed by his ship being attacked, and him taken as a slave.
- prepend 5y ago
  I was lucky enough to read these back when they were released as only 3 books. Still had the same parts but was cheaper to buy.
barbacoa 5y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2EJChRdxL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2EJChRdxL0 I listened to this excerpt from a book by an Icelander who was captured and enslaved by Barbary raiders. Very interesting, would recommend.
newsclues 5y ago
Do white people with ancestors that were slaves get considered reparations?
- prepend 5y ago
  I guess they get the exact same reparations as any population with enslaved ancestors. $0
- bannedbybros 5y ago
DubiousPusher 5y ago
One of the most fascinating historical connection points I've encountered comes from Richard Crowley's remarkable, "Empires of the Sea". In the early modern period, the rowed galley was the premiere device of naval warfare. The need for oarsmen for the growing fleets of the powers of the time, the Ottomans and the Hapsburgs, drove slave taking by both Islamists and Christians to incredible scale and brutality. The Ottoman's, through their high level of centralized control, taxation and organization were able to repeatedly put together massive galley fleets, which were often supplemented by Barbary corsairs and often led by Barbary admirals. Europe's response was to put its new engines of capital to the same purpose. They had no other choice as Europe lacked a centralized administration. Charles V was the closest thing they had but his powers of conscription were limited. Charles however was able to pay for one of his most critically timed fleets with a surprise influx of gold. Charles afterall was king of Spain as well has Holy Roman Emporer and 2 million ducets worth of new world gold was his take on the shakedown of the Incans for the ransom of Atahualpa. This gold hit Charles' bankers just in time to construct a fleet which turned back a major Ottoman advance. To me there is no better illustration of first just how long we've been living in a globalizing world and second just how joined at the hip colonialism, capitalism and European power are.
- hef19898 5y ago
  The majority of gally rovers during that period, of western countroes, were convicts or paid rovers. No idea how the Ottomans did it. That conflict, European powers against the Ottomans over the Mediterranean trade routes, included a massive gally building program by Venice. Which depleted Venice's coffers so much that were later on sidelined as an economic power.
Anthony-G 5y ago
It’s a coincidence seeing this article on Hacker News this evening. Earlier today, while planning a trip to County Cork (in Ireland), I’d been reading about the Sack of Baltimore¹. In 1630, the fishing town of Baltimore was attacked by Barbary pirates/slave traders who kidnapped over a hundred residents (mostly English settlers/colonists) and brought them back to Algiers. Those who escaped fled to a nearby town and Baltimore itself was abandoned until the late 18th century. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore
zeristor 5y ago
Also the Barbary Wars, strange to see Sweden involved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars
- marsven_422 5y ago

156 points by zeristor 5y ago

If you like podcasts check out Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History episode on slavery https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-history/id173001861?i=1000553133741 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-h... And Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast (season 4) on the Haitian revolution https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/revolutions/id703889772?i=1000358493623 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/revolutions/id70388977... Slavery is an ancient and extremely complex topic. While it is certainly a moral evil there are very few heroes we can point to as moral saviors by modern standards. African kingdoms themselves sold their rivals into slavery en masse. Anyone who says the modern world is a horror show has no idea how good they have it.

PradeetPatel 5y ago
Precisely, it always gets me when many workers in the US are calling their work environment "slavery", doing so ultimately undermines and trivialises the horror our ancestors went through. I, for one, am glad that such barbaric practice has been more or less abolished.
- indigochill 5y ago
  > I, for one, am glad that such barbaric practice has been more or less abolished. Well, yes and no. Human trafficking is still big business even in the states (worldwide, the State Department estimates 24.9 million trafficked persons at any given time - domestically, there were for example over 1,500 reported cases in California in 2019). It's just underground now.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    Is human trafficking strictly slavery/coercive, or does it lump in all smuggling of sex workers, irrespective of the presence of consent/willingness?
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      Slavery is alive and well in the world today, and is not simply limited to sex trafficking. According to https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/human-trafficking-numbers#:~:text=An%20estimated%2024.9%20million%20victims,place%20in%20many%20different%20industries https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/human-trafficking-.... Only about 20% are sexually exploited, with the majority used for labor.
kristopolous 5y ago
... Deleted
- namdnay 5y ago
  ???
  - kristopolous 5y ago
    I deleted it. It's really not my place to say that
    - Fargoan 5y ago
      Say what?
      - kristopolous 5y ago
        I spoke poorly of someone. I'm trying to be more sensitive to potentially neurodivergent people so pardon me for leaving it here.
Simon_O_Rourke 5y ago
> Anyone who says the modern world is a horror show has no idea how good they have it. The modern world is still a horror show. We've just dialed back the barbarity from 100 to 98. Only now we tend to know more about what's going on in the world. And even then you can turn off the tragedy and suffering on the nightly news and happily watch Jeopardy! And to misquote Gibbon - "our sympathy is cold to the relation of distant misery".
inglor_cz 5y ago
"Anyone who says the modern world is a horror show has no idea how good they have it." Depends on your actual location. Modern democracies were able to tame the worst human instincts down. But Mariupol 2022 will likely enter the pantheon of worst horrors in history. Nothing good about that.
- prepend 5y ago
  This doesn’t mean that nothing bad happens today, but that it’s nothing compared to past atrocities. Of course Mariupol is horrible and I feel empathy for the people there. It must be horrible. And I’m sure it’s no comfort to them that Mariupol isn’t as bad as past things. But it is a comfort to the rest of the world that Mariupol isn’t as bad as stuff like Alexander’s siege of Tyre over 2000 years ago [0]. And that Mariupol will not be remembered in the list of world horrors. It’s unlikely anyone will be linking to Mariupol in 2000 years. And let’s be thankful that it doesn’t get worse than it currently is. And that we help the people of Mariupol. [0] after capture everyone in the city was murdered, crucified, or sold into slavery https://www.worldhistory.org/article/107/alexanders-siege-of-tyre-332-bce/ https://www.worldhistory.org/article/107/alexanders-siege-of...
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    True, the warfare of Antiquity was something else entirely.

davidw 5y ago

The US war with those states features in this book about the founding of the US navy. Interesting read. "Six Frigates: The Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy" - https://www.amazon.com/Six-Frigates-Epic-History-Founding/dp/039333032X/ https://www.amazon.com/Six-Frigates-Epic-History-Founding/dp...

kristopolous 5y ago

There's also a "Barbary coast" referring to a red light district in San Francisco that was established after the gold rush and more or less died around the depression (I'll be putting out a multipart podcast on the history of it and how it helped lead to the Beat generation of City Lights, the culture of alternative lifestyles and Barbrook's "the California Ideology" starting in about a week or so - and yes, for history nerds I know the more proper arc is a PNW agglomeration, but I'm doing a pinhead focus to have a narrative flow tolerable to general audiences) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast,_San_Francisco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast,_San_Francisco Here's a quote about the district from 1876 (excuse the colorful language) "The Barbary Coast is the haunt of the low and the vile of every kind. The petty thief, the house burglar, the tramp, the whoremonger, lewd women, cutthroats, murderers, all are found here. Dance-halls and concert-saloons, where blear-eyed men and faded women drink vile liquor, smoke offensive tobacco, engage in vulgar conduct, sing obscene songs and say and do everything to heap upon themselves more degradation, are numerous. Low gambling houses, thronged with riot-loving rowdies, in all stages of intoxication, are there. Opium dens, where heathen Chinese and God-forsaken men and women are sprawled in miscellaneous confusion, disgustingly drowsy or completely overcome, are there. Licentiousness, debauchery, pollution, loathsome disease, insanity from dissipation, misery, poverty, wealth, profanity, blasphemy, and death, are there. And Hell, yawning to receive the putrid mass, is there also." - Asbury, in Benjamin Estelle Lloyd's Lights and Shades of San Francisco (1876) (full excerpt https://archive.org/details/lightsshadesinsa00lloy/page/78/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/lightsshadesinsa00lloy/page/78/m...)

pm90 5y ago
Sounds like an amazing place tbh. I’m assuming writers of the time exaggerated things a little.
- kristopolous 5y ago
  The lawless Western town that needs a new sheriff around is a composite sketch of various places, one of which was the Barbary coast. For instance let's go to a 1872 San Francisco chronicle article, "A Vigorous Check to Street Ruffianism The King of the Hoodlums Gets 415 Days in the County Jail--Juvenile Burglars--On the Barbary Coast" It's a long quote but it's a good read "...Judge Louderback in sentencing him made the following remarks: "Riley, you were born a bad man. You are one of the worst criminals at present in this city. You have appeared before the Court on all kinds of charges-vulgar and profane language, assault and battery, vagrancy, grand larceny, petty larceny, housebreaking, burglary and robbery. Citizens have refused to make complaints against you for fear you would indict some injury upon them. Men have begged officers not to subpoena them as witnesses against you for the same reason. Wives have entreated officers not to subpoena their husbands, one even going down upon her knees, for fear that you would murder her husband or commit some outrage upon his property. Wherever you have been you have proved yourself a terror to men, women and children. Your deeds of violence have acquired for you the infamous title of King of the Hoodlums." Amazing...There's a fairly decent ~400 page 1933 book on the place named "The Barbary coast; an informal history of the San Francisco underworld" available at https://archive.org/details/barbarycoastinfo00asbu https://archive.org/details/barbarycoastinfo00asbu And an Edward G Robinson (from "Little Caesar", inventor of the movie gangster) movie about it in 1935: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0026097 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0026097 It's lost in the collective consciousness. There's stuff we'd find pretty hilarious looking at the archives. For instance, the city sent clergy to investigate the infidelity of the place in 1910. For another colorful example, let's take a San Francisco chronicle article from October 8 1912 "Clergy denounces morale of city: Barbary Coast and Saloons Scored at Meeting of Juvenile Society" "Vice conditions in San Francisco, particularly as presented by the Barbary Coast, were the subject of an address last night by Rev. Father Terrance... "The climax of this iniquity." said the speaker, after telling about the dives in the Barbary Coast district, "Is rapped by the rapidly-multiplying dancing grills, where the dance steps indulged in are obscene, animal movements that would not be countenanced in the dominion of the Sultan at Constantinople. We have asked the Police Commissioners to separate drinking and dancing, as they have the power to do. If they fall us we must plan to carry the fight further. It is time that San Francisco ceased to be a by-word." This spirit of San Francisco was born of the Barbary Coast

lifeisstillgood 5y ago

As an Englishman I had no idea that Barbary Coast slavers (that I had heard of) raided on land in the UK. As this was taking place at the same time as those communities were involved in the Africa / Americas trade just seems to say you cannot contain evil.

R0b0t1 5y ago
And also, that evil is everywhere, not just at home.
alpinemeadow 5y ago
Have you seen these numbers ? https://www.slavevoyages.org/assessment/estimates?selected_tab=timeline https://www.slavevoyages.org/assessment/estimates?selected_t... (Edit spelling )
- smcl 5y ago
  I don't think this person is trying to say "these are exactly the same". Only the hardest-right people try to diminish the transatlantic slave trade by saying that other groups did it than the white colonial powers. The comment to me seemed more "Huh, today I learned..." than that.
  - dmurray 5y ago
    There's a chilling effect at the moment where you can't say "huh, today I learned" about anything that might be a right-wing talking point without risk of being treated as some kind of White supremacist yourself.
    - smcl 5y ago
      It's not so chilling or new - people have been misunderstanding each other for millenia. And here on HN at least, if commenters follow the comment guidelines we should be alright. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

giorgioz 5y ago

TIMELINES: Barbary Slave Trade 1500–1800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade Atlantic Slave Trade 1500-1800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade Abolition of Slavery from Britain 1807 and 1833 The Abolition of Slavery in Britain happened in 1807 making illegal to purchase slaves from Africa and then in 1833 stopping slavery in the Caribbean. https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Abolition-Of-Slavery/ https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Aboli...

deleted 5y ago
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ttyprintk 5y ago
I feel like, roughly speaking, the first Atlantic system started off quite small because Native Americans were slave labor starting with Columbus. The second Atlantic system passed Barbary slaving. Import into the US was banned in 1808.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Wasn't it at the beginning mostly indentured servants from Europe?
  - ttyprintk 5y ago
    Africans until the early seventeenth century arrived as indentured servants. This occasionally comes up in the lineage of guests on the PBS show Finding Your Roots. Indentured servants from Europe plus political deportations might have outnumbered Africans. I’ve heard this is true at least in the Caribbean. In my family, our origin could be Scotland or Ireland; both populations were called Irish at the time.

peter_retief 5y ago

The Vikings also captured and sold people into slavery, Dublin was a slave trading post setup by the Vikings. Also captured Slavic peoples from Europe from which the term slave comes. Christianity stopped slavery.

hef19898 5y ago
Considering that it was Christian nations that enslaved more people in recent history, and the longest, you might want to rethink your last sentence. And you might read up on serfdom, a hallmark in European feudalism.
- livinginfear 5y ago
  [citation needed] This is total nonsense. In modern times it's Christian, largely European nations where slavery has not flourished. Check the data for yourself. Slavery is alive and well in many parts of the world. In many cultures it's hardly even controversial. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17... https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Serfdom, which survived until the 18th century where I live, is rather different from chattel slavery. Serfs were tied to land, not to their masters. (It reminds you of the internal passport system of the USSR.) They therefore had local culture, uninterrupted traditions going back centuries, and families could not simply be torn apart by selling someone away. "Breeding" serfs for profit wasn't a thing either; everybody who was born in a certain village had to be sustained there. Young serfs could be recruited into the army and gain social status. And as a noble, you couldn't just import more serfs from abroad for money. You had to make do with what you had, which meant at least somewhat better treatment. What serfdom has in common with slavery is the fact that industrialization killed off both of them. Industry required a large and moveable work force. I am not insinuating that being a serf was enjoyable, but if I had to choose between serfdom and slavery, that would be no contest.

Clepsydra 5y ago

The slavers even went as far north as Iceland: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Abductions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Abductions

kewrkewm53 5y ago

There should be more discussion about these forgotten forms of slave trade. People tend to think about just the transatlantic slavery when they hear the word, but reality the transatlantic slavers just scaled up and spread an existing way of doing business. Interestingly enough, Crimea used to be a major center of slave trade all the way into 1700s. Christians were sold to Islamic world and vice versa. https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/ https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnis...

fsloth 5y ago
Focusing on the atlantic slave trade is understandable in US as that's very foundational there. I just hope US people would realize allmost none of their North-American cultural tropes are applicable elsewhere as a foundation for anything, really. Example: I am a finn. A middle class male in a high income country. What this means is: I am of the indigeneous population in this country (one of the population surges after the ice age). My kin where hunted as slaves and sold to asian slave markets. Finland never participated in the colonial era except as a dirt poor third world economy to be exploited. There is xenophobia and racism as elsewhere, but there is no historical past we should be particularly ashamed off. If I were to come to US I presume I would be categorized based on my skin color in the "population whose ancestors benefitted from an inhuman trade" where as the truth would be "whose ancestors were the oppressed". I don't find it insulting or anything, but I do get the sense that the strength of the US tropes would make it impossible to discuss this in US context without myself being labeled a white power supremacist or something worse.
- Thorentis 5y ago
  Unfortunately, along with Hollywood and other culture, the US thanks to the Internet also exports its political and social issues to the world. It has reached the point that "white people" are now considered the oppressors of every country, regardless of whether those people are indeed the indigenous population of the country. It is even more absurd in the UK, where in fact multiple groups of white people were successively displaced by conquest (Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc), and yet collectively, "Anglo Saxons" are perceived as oppressors, even if many decend from a group of people who were themselves oppressed.

tragomaskhalos 5y ago

Those Cornish communities had it rough - Mousehole (pron. 'mauzul') was one of the villages that was also subjected to ruinous raiding by the Spanish in the late 16c; they will show you buildings still standing with the walls pockmarked by musket balls (although this cynic wonders at whether an awl and a vivid imagination may equally be at work here)

jl6 5y ago

Man, Hollywood PR has done some fine brand image work on pirates in the last century or so (greenswashing?). “Pirate” today conjures the image of a dashing rogue standing up to power. The murder, rape and slaving really get swept under the carpet.

hef19898 5y ago
As does the fact that caribean pirates formed a democratic government at one point. At the same time naval practices, from sodomie to whipping, isn't talked about a lot neither. You uave a point so, Hollywood has a tendency of portraying romantic aspects when it comes to history.
- foldr 5y ago
  It's 'sodomy'. Reminds me of this classic: https://nyupress.org/9780814712351/sodomy-and-the-pirate-tradition/ https://nyupress.org/9780814712351/sodomy-and-the-pirate-tra...
- ransom1538 5y ago
  Pirates were complicated in the 15-17th century. They were usually backed by a kingdom. As a captain one way to get rich was to be given a "pirate pass" - in which you could terrorize shipping from from other hostile kingdoms. Example below. As a pirate you wanted a place where you could restock - so they would answer to and work for kingdoms that were expanding in the new world. The most treasured ships (in the entire world ) were leaving from south america so full of stolen gold they would often sink. That is why you see movies of pirates in the gulf of mexico. But honestly every nation had them - they operated throughout the known world. One of the coolest 16th century castles - was created to stop pirates raiding spanish shipping in Florida. It is amazing with an amazing history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_San_Marcos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_San_Marcos John Paul Jones was the first "American Pirate". He worked for the US / France and would raid british shipping. https://museeprotestant.org/en/notice/huguenot-pirates-in-the-17th-century/ https://museeprotestant.org/en/notice/huguenot-pirates-in-th... The treaty of Tordesillas on the 7th of June 1494 declared that lands lying beyond the Atlantic Ocean, whether discovered in the past or the future, were to be shared uniquely between Spain and Portugal. In addition, Pope Alexander VI gave his approval in a papal bull. This treaty did not receive the agreement of France or England and they were all the more offended by it because soon after this, the Spanish refused to allow any other nation to tradewith their American colonies. It was in such circumstances as this that both France and England allowed their corsairs to attack Spanish vessels in Europe and the West Indies, with the justification that they had letters giving official permission from their government, although these papers were sometimes false. Indeed, sometimes the politicians actively encouraged such ventures.

nanis 5y ago

The Mediterranean between the 1500s and the 1900s is a very interesting place with a lot of interesting shades of gray. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinan_Reis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinan_Reis > Sinan sailed under the famed Ottoman admiral Hayreddin Barbarossa at the 1538 Battle of Preveza against Charles' Imperial fleet and its commander, Andrea Doria. Sinan suggested landing troops at Actium on the Gulf of Arta near Preveza, an idea which Barbarossa initially opposed, but which later proved to be important for securing the Ottoman victory. > Around 1540, Sinan's son was traveling by sea to meet him after one of Sinan's victories. The boy was taken captive by Emperor Charles' forces and was ultimately handed over to the Lord of Elba, who baptized him and raised him at court. Barbarossa made several unsuccessful attempts to ransom Sinan's son. While sailing nearby in 1544, Barbarossa sent an envoy to Elba to again attempt to free the boy. The island's Lord replied that his "religious scruples forbade him to surrender a baptized Christian to an infidel". Infuriated, Barbarossa landed men at Piombino, sacked the town, and blew up the fort, after which the ruler agreed to release his "boy-favorite".

biztos 5y ago
TIL there was an Ottoman Barbarossa[0] in addition to the German one[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Empero...

cm2187 5y ago

Drachinifel has an interesting video about the barbary states for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSBmGaLt5OU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSBmGaLt5OU

the__alchemist 5y ago

For an epic of a fictional take, the Barbary pirates, and their slaving, play a significant role in The 8-book series The Baroque Cycle - especially the middle few books. One of the main characters ends up on an epic journey, catalyzed by his ship being attacked, and him taken as a slave.

prepend 5y ago
I was lucky enough to read these back when they were released as only 3 books. Still had the same parts but was cheaper to buy.

barbacoa 5y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2EJChRdxL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2EJChRdxL0 I listened to this excerpt from a book by an Icelander who was captured and enslaved by Barbary raiders. Very interesting, would recommend.

newsclues 5y ago

Do white people with ancestors that were slaves get considered reparations?

prepend 5y ago
I guess they get the exact same reparations as any population with enslaved ancestors. $0
bannedbybros 5y ago

DubiousPusher 5y ago

One of the most fascinating historical connection points I've encountered comes from Richard Crowley's remarkable, "Empires of the Sea". In the early modern period, the rowed galley was the premiere device of naval warfare. The need for oarsmen for the growing fleets of the powers of the time, the Ottomans and the Hapsburgs, drove slave taking by both Islamists and Christians to incredible scale and brutality. The Ottoman's, through their high level of centralized control, taxation and organization were able to repeatedly put together massive galley fleets, which were often supplemented by Barbary corsairs and often led by Barbary admirals. Europe's response was to put its new engines of capital to the same purpose. They had no other choice as Europe lacked a centralized administration. Charles V was the closest thing they had but his powers of conscription were limited. Charles however was able to pay for one of his most critically timed fleets with a surprise influx of gold. Charles afterall was king of Spain as well has Holy Roman Emporer and 2 million ducets worth of new world gold was his take on the shakedown of the Incans for the ransom of Atahualpa. This gold hit Charles' bankers just in time to construct a fleet which turned back a major Ottoman advance. To me there is no better illustration of first just how long we've been living in a globalizing world and second just how joined at the hip colonialism, capitalism and European power are.

hef19898 5y ago
The majority of gally rovers during that period, of western countroes, were convicts or paid rovers. No idea how the Ottomans did it. That conflict, European powers against the Ottomans over the Mediterranean trade routes, included a massive gally building program by Venice. Which depleted Venice's coffers so much that were later on sidelined as an economic power.

Anthony-G 5y ago

It’s a coincidence seeing this article on Hacker News this evening. Earlier today, while planning a trip to County Cork (in Ireland), I’d been reading about the Sack of Baltimore¹. In 1630, the fishing town of Baltimore was attacked by Barbary pirates/slave traders who kidnapped over a hundred residents (mostly English settlers/colonists) and brought them back to Algiers. Those who escaped fled to a nearby town and Baltimore itself was abandoned until the late 18th century. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore

zeristor 5y ago

Also the Barbary Wars, strange to see Sweden involved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars

marsven_422 5y ago