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Down from a jury verdict of $136.9m, to be clear, on grounds that the initial judgment was excessive. Not sure I agree with that conclusion and would prefer to

Down from a jury verdict of $136.9m, to be clear, on grounds that the initial judgment was excessive. Not sure I agree with that conclusion and would prefer to see companies permitting systemic racism absolutely thrashed in civil court not only to make an example but to make the cost of garbage treatment of workers higher than the cost of changing course. 15 million, even once per year, isn't a disincentive because it easily costs more than that to change ways of working at any company.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
I think the PR damage is worse than the actual fine.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  Really? You think that the PR cost is more than a super bowl commercial, 50 New York Times full page ads, and a few hundred million Facebook ad impressions combined?
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    It’s possible. It depends on how the thing is covered.
andrewclunn 5y ago
Make it lucrative enough to be a victim and suddenly people will start wanting to be victimized (or at least pretend to be). Your comment speaks of religious fervor, and that righteous hatred will only make heretics and nonbelievers. Incentives cut all ways.
MBCook 5y ago
It sounded like that was about as high as the judge could go based on the laws. However as the article mentioned this is not the only lawsuit for this kind of thing against Tesla. Maybe one verdict isn’t enough but a couple of them might be.
gnicholas 5y ago
IIRC from law school, there are constitutional limits on the ratio of punitive to compensatory damages, and 10:1 is roughly the limit. Based on the compensatory damages here, much larger punitive damages could have been held to be constitutional, but that would depend on the egregiousness and other factors. This will likely be appealed, so this isn’t necessarily the end of the road. It’s just the ‘turn’ card that reveals more information and positions the parties for new settlement discussions.
Thorentis 5y ago
The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. Companies pay less in compensation when a worker has serious workplace injuries resulting in disability than this. I see no justification in "racism" carrying a higher punishment than that.
- _8j50 5y ago
  This isn't a criminal prosecution. The court can induce a cost that is more than the measurable damage caused. How do you measure racism? $1000 each time a derogatory remark is made? The cause of action in whatever civil law they are using for the suit might help but ultimately the victim didn't lose money, they were harmed and a fair compensation would be to harm the guilty party equally. As in, cause Elon and his company an equivalent level of distress over an equivalent period of time. A fair punishment would be to reward the victim a random percentage of the company's net profits with 10% increments every year ( 10,30,40% ) with 40% max for as many number of years the person worked there and a 95% tax on that award to prevent they guy taking over the company. The company will suffer distress that is arbitrary and prejudicial in nature just like the victim did.
  - Thorentis 5y ago
    Your "fair punishment" is based on the idea that because the racism was random and arbitrary, the punishment should also be random and arbitrary. This isn't how justice works, and if this was applied to any other "crime", nobody would be okay with it.
    - _8j50 5y ago
      Care to elaborate? I was implying it should apply to other crime as well. In my perfect world, prison sentences would be a lot less common. Fairness is a fundamental compnent of justice. If there is a victim then the aggressor needs to be harmed in a similar way. Theft? Something if equal value should be taken from you. I also agree with "lashing" and damaging a persons body for certain crimes like rape for example (chemical or otherwise castration in addition to some torment). Fines are a joke, a slap in the face of justice. The affect the poor only even when proportional to income. 25% of a poor person's wealth has much more impact than 25% of a billionaire's wealth or a corporation's profits. While I believe in mercy strongly (especially when the victim supports it), justice has to have fairness and equal application and is better left not administered than administered partially.
deleted 5y ago
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TaylorAlexander 5y ago

I think the PR damage is worse than the actual fine.

seoaeu 5y ago
Really? You think that the PR cost is more than a super bowl commercial, 50 New York Times full page ads, and a few hundred million Facebook ad impressions combined?
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  It’s possible. It depends on how the thing is covered.

andrewclunn 5y ago

Make it lucrative enough to be a victim and suddenly people will start wanting to be victimized (or at least pretend to be). Your comment speaks of religious fervor, and that righteous hatred will only make heretics and nonbelievers. Incentives cut all ways.

MBCook 5y ago

It sounded like that was about as high as the judge could go based on the laws. However as the article mentioned this is not the only lawsuit for this kind of thing against Tesla. Maybe one verdict isn’t enough but a couple of them might be.

gnicholas 5y ago

IIRC from law school, there are constitutional limits on the ratio of punitive to compensatory damages, and 10:1 is roughly the limit. Based on the compensatory damages here, much larger punitive damages could have been held to be constitutional, but that would depend on the egregiousness and other factors. This will likely be appealed, so this isn’t necessarily the end of the road. It’s just the ‘turn’ card that reveals more information and positions the parties for new settlement discussions.

Thorentis 5y ago

The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. Companies pay less in compensation when a worker has serious workplace injuries resulting in disability than this. I see no justification in "racism" carrying a higher punishment than that.

_8j50 5y ago
This isn't a criminal prosecution. The court can induce a cost that is more than the measurable damage caused. How do you measure racism? $1000 each time a derogatory remark is made? The cause of action in whatever civil law they are using for the suit might help but ultimately the victim didn't lose money, they were harmed and a fair compensation would be to harm the guilty party equally. As in, cause Elon and his company an equivalent level of distress over an equivalent period of time. A fair punishment would be to reward the victim a random percentage of the company's net profits with 10% increments every year ( 10,30,40% ) with 40% max for as many number of years the person worked there and a 95% tax on that award to prevent they guy taking over the company. The company will suffer distress that is arbitrary and prejudicial in nature just like the victim did.
- Thorentis 5y ago
  Your "fair punishment" is based on the idea that because the racism was random and arbitrary, the punishment should also be random and arbitrary. This isn't how justice works, and if this was applied to any other "crime", nobody would be okay with it.
  - _8j50 5y ago
    Care to elaborate? I was implying it should apply to other crime as well. In my perfect world, prison sentences would be a lot less common. Fairness is a fundamental compnent of justice. If there is a victim then the aggressor needs to be harmed in a similar way. Theft? Something if equal value should be taken from you. I also agree with "lashing" and damaging a persons body for certain crimes like rape for example (chemical or otherwise castration in addition to some torment). Fines are a joke, a slap in the face of justice. The affect the poor only even when proportional to income. 25% of a poor person's wealth has much more impact than 25% of a billionaire's wealth or a corporation's profits. While I believe in mercy strongly (especially when the victim supports it), justice has to have fairness and equal application and is better left not administered than administered partially.

deleted 5y ago

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