4 ms·

Wow I'm an old man. With the youth I'd say this generation is more affected by any other by the sheer noise of modern media. It's also one of the first where t

Wow I'm an old man. With the youth I'd say this generation is more affected by any other by the sheer noise of modern media. It's also one of the first where there was less emphasis on indoctrinating people towards the government's view on the cold war, the first to grow up with a government that lied to them about a significant non-cold war war (Iraq), and the first that actually has the means to cheaply find other views on things. So maybe it's not so strange that young people think this way. I mostly blame the Iraq war. Yes, the west has done a lot of bad things in the past. But in recent memory Iraq stands out as where we blew any pretense of moral superiority. (It does happen now and again, but the Cold War is a really good excuse for a LOT of bad things). People would have seen this and seen that whatever our governments say, you gotta take it with a grain of salt.

_bohm 5y ago
Adding to this, young Americans have never seen anything gained from war. The war in Afghanistan lasted 2 decades and cost trillions of dollars, yet we have next to nothing to show for it.
- 8note 5y ago
  When is the last time America has seen benefit from going to war? The 50s with a stalemate in Korea?
  - _bohm 5y ago
    Arguably the first Gulf War. The US successfully protected it's economic interest and expanded its military establishment in the region.
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      And liberated the Kuwaiti people from scud missiles, invasion, and occupation from a brutal Saddam regime? That's a pretty important benefit to miss, but maybe you're just limiting it to benefits for a US citizen. (of which selfless ones would consider it a benefit)
      - _bohm 5y ago
        That is indeed the perspective I was looking at if from. But you are right.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    People who don't go to war always gained from war. Lots of jobs. The post-WWII afterglow is when we defined our middle-class mythologies. The good old days. The US had 419K deaths from WWII. That's like half as much as covid thus far. Americans like to go to war because they sacrifice nothing. It's a game.
  - onos 5y ago
    One problem with all these reviews is that we can’t see the counter factual. That said I agree Iraq war was likely a very bad thing for our country and certainly is responsible for much of our internal strife right now.
- 10xrubberduck 5y ago
  Add Libyan intervention (2011) as well - that put the country into 9 years of civil war (is it still peaceful there? IDK). Though this one is combined mess of NATO.
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  It made stock prices go up so a bunch of retirees could live comfortably and also made several presidents look presidential while they heartfelt condolences over flag-draped caskets.
snakeboy 5y ago
According to Gallup, the proportion of Americans who trust mass media a "great deal" or a "fair amount" dropped 10 percentage points during the Iraq war, and then never fully recovered. Of course, broken down by political party shows Democrats have restored their trust in mass media just fine, especially since Trump... [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-dips-second-lowest-record.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-di...
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Yes there is a solid 30% of america that is Trump america (and probably was before Trump even came on the scene and made them bolder). They don't trust the government (but gladly accept donations from the government), don't trust mainstream media, largely support alt-right news like Fox and OAN, tend towards white supremacy, fear "the other" and base most decisions around that fear, and will always vote Republican.
  - snakeboy 5y ago
    > and will always vote Republican I'm not sure I would go that far. I can easily imagine a situation where the Republican party pulls out all the stops and ensures Trump doesn't win the nomination, only for Trump to run on the MAGA party ticket. I would expect him to easily get 10% of the vote. We didn't get any democrats who really dared test this on the left in 2020, as even Bernie (the strongest cult of personality on the left, for comparison) fell in line behind Biden. That is to say, strong personalities, more than institutions, seem to carry the most power. Perhaps this has always been true? How much of mass media's historical confidence was due solely to Walter Kronkite?
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
>I mostly blame the Iraq war. The Iraq war is mostly to blame in the recent past, but only because our attacks on Libya, Syria, Yemen and elsewhere haven't received the media coverage they warranted. We utterly destroyed Libya, which was the most prosperous country in Africa, in 2014. Today Libyans are being sold there in open-air slave markets. How many Americans know this? Our troops are occupying Syria illegally, right now. Where is the outrage?

_bohm 5y ago

Adding to this, young Americans have never seen anything gained from war. The war in Afghanistan lasted 2 decades and cost trillions of dollars, yet we have next to nothing to show for it.

8note 5y ago
When is the last time America has seen benefit from going to war? The 50s with a stalemate in Korea?
- _bohm 5y ago
  Arguably the first Gulf War. The US successfully protected it's economic interest and expanded its military establishment in the region.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    And liberated the Kuwaiti people from scud missiles, invasion, and occupation from a brutal Saddam regime? That's a pretty important benefit to miss, but maybe you're just limiting it to benefits for a US citizen. (of which selfless ones would consider it a benefit)
    - _bohm 5y ago
      That is indeed the perspective I was looking at if from. But you are right.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  People who don't go to war always gained from war. Lots of jobs. The post-WWII afterglow is when we defined our middle-class mythologies. The good old days. The US had 419K deaths from WWII. That's like half as much as covid thus far. Americans like to go to war because they sacrifice nothing. It's a game.
- onos 5y ago
  One problem with all these reviews is that we can’t see the counter factual. That said I agree Iraq war was likely a very bad thing for our country and certainly is responsible for much of our internal strife right now.
10xrubberduck 5y ago
Add Libyan intervention (2011) as well - that put the country into 9 years of civil war (is it still peaceful there? IDK). Though this one is combined mess of NATO.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
It made stock prices go up so a bunch of retirees could live comfortably and also made several presidents look presidential while they heartfelt condolences over flag-draped caskets.

snakeboy 5y ago

According to Gallup, the proportion of Americans who trust mass media a "great deal" or a "fair amount" dropped 10 percentage points during the Iraq war, and then never fully recovered. Of course, broken down by political party shows Democrats have restored their trust in mass media just fine, especially since Trump... [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-dips-second-lowest-record.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-di...

stjohnswarts 5y ago
Yes there is a solid 30% of america that is Trump america (and probably was before Trump even came on the scene and made them bolder). They don't trust the government (but gladly accept donations from the government), don't trust mainstream media, largely support alt-right news like Fox and OAN, tend towards white supremacy, fear "the other" and base most decisions around that fear, and will always vote Republican.
- snakeboy 5y ago
  > and will always vote Republican I'm not sure I would go that far. I can easily imagine a situation where the Republican party pulls out all the stops and ensures Trump doesn't win the nomination, only for Trump to run on the MAGA party ticket. I would expect him to easily get 10% of the vote. We didn't get any democrats who really dared test this on the left in 2020, as even Bernie (the strongest cult of personality on the left, for comparison) fell in line behind Biden. That is to say, strong personalities, more than institutions, seem to carry the most power. Perhaps this has always been true? How much of mass media's historical confidence was due solely to Walter Kronkite?

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

>I mostly blame the Iraq war. The Iraq war is mostly to blame in the recent past, but only because our attacks on Libya, Syria, Yemen and elsewhere haven't received the media coverage they warranted. We utterly destroyed Libya, which was the most prosperous country in Africa, in 2014. Today Libyans are being sold there in open-air slave markets. How many Americans know this? Our troops are occupying Syria illegally, right now. Where is the outrage?