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I think the thing I'm saying is that consumers and workers are effectively the same group. Trying to separate "consumer" concerns from "worker" concerns is at l

I think the thing I'm saying is that consumers and workers are effectively the same group. Trying to separate "consumer" concerns from "worker" concerns is at least as political an idea as suggesting they should welcome a chance to show solidarity.

kcplate 5y ago
As a consumer my concern is the products I order are delivered when I expect them to be delivered. I am not sure how that crosses with Amazon worker unionization concerns. If Amazon can satisfy my consumer concerns with or without unions, I’m satisfied. They are obviously doing that now. Showing solidarity…what benefit does that give the consumer? It just means sacrifice for me.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  As a worker, what sets your wage? If you're unionized, collective bargaining. Unions that are stronger are able to better support each other. The better deal amazon's workers get, the better deal you can get. If you're non-unionized, your wage is still impacted by the wages of other employers. Case in point, when amazon raised their minimum wage - other companies were forced to follow suit: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/business/economy/amazon-wage-effect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/business/economy/amazon-w... Sure, if you're a high-payed tech worker, your own wage is pretty disconnected from the warehouse worker market - but not completely. And I bet you have friends and family who's wages are MUCH closer linked.
  - throwaway09223 5y ago
    The impact on tech worker wages is probably negative because unionization is associated with lower profits. Especially for tech workers who derive the majority of their income from equity. Highly unionized countries do not tend to have a higher per-capita income across all socioeconomic demographics when compared to the US. It's not clear that unionization is an overall net positive for higher income individuals.
    - kennywinker 5y ago
      Indeed. Granting a one group small ownership stake swings some of their allegiances towards ownership and away from labour. I would ask myself what cost that small slice of ownership you’ve been granted (play on words intended) comes at to the people around you. To me it doesn’t seem very different from buying off union leaders. Are you that easily bought? I.e. maybe supporting unions leads to a smaller gap between your tech salary, and a warehouse worker. That’s still going to benefit you, in that the people around you are less desperate, and have more energy to put into their communities, etc.
      - throwaway09223 5y ago
        Your rhetoric is disgusting and regrettable, but worst of all it's simply inaccurate. I support the right to unionize regardless of whether it benefits me personally. It seems the area where you and I differ is that my commitment to telling the truth regarding the various economic ramifications is more important than my political ideology.
        kennywinker 5y ago
        I do have a political ideology, but so do you. My overarching point as been to insist that socio-economic class, consumer and worker separation, and stock granting are as political ideas as worker solidarity and class consciousness. But you’re calling that untruthful, and ideologically motivated, and disgusting rhetoric, so I guess we’re probably done
        throwaway09223 5y ago
        I'm calling out your projections. Your posts are riddled with inaccurate blind guesses about me. None of what you're saying is correct, as a simple matter of fact. I encourage you to take a break and think about your perspective. If your points are worth making should be able to make them without these ad-hominem guessing games. Nothing about me is relevant when it comes to objective facts such as the way unions impact economies.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    That’s still arguing worker benefits. I am asking as a consumer, what is in it for me to cancel services I use and are happy with to be in solidarity? I don’t see any benefit, only sacrifice. So the only reason I see for acting in solidarity is if you are specifically politically inclined toward them.
    - kennywinker 5y ago
      Again you’re separating your worker identity and your consumer identity. You can’t consume if you don’t work. They are intrinsically linked, but you’re choosing to see them as separated. Yes, Maybe you give up your prime for a few months, but next year when you’re negotiating your salary, you have a stronger collective bargain position (unionized or non)
      - kcplate 5y ago
        Your argument relies on an assumption. You make the assumption that my employer exploits me. They don’t. Perhaps Amazon exploits some of their workers (local drivers, warehouse workers, but tech…hardly). I’d argue that in 2022 with US labor laws…most workers aren’t exploited. Some think they are—some perhaps politically think this soft Marxism you are alluding to is a good thing. So what we have again is a situation where a consumer like me is not in the position of a unionizing Amazon worker so we can’t identify with their labor situation. I don’t have a dogmatic political stance on them unionizing. In their current non-unionized work situation, I’m content to be a customer. In a unionized situation, I’m content to be a customer as long as the product they provide meets my needs. I don’t have a dog in their fight, so there is zero need to me to stop using a product I want to be in solidarity with them.
        kennywinker 5y ago
        I don’t want to make assumptions about your specific work, so let’s talk about tech workers in general. As an example, Facebook made over $9 billion in profit in 2021. If you work for facebook, you were exploited to the tune of around 9bil/63k employees, so an average of 142k and change. If you distributed that according to current salaries, most tech workers at fb would probably be due a few 100k more per year. Without the labour of their workers, facebook does not exist. From the people who serve lunch to the accountants to the coders. Yet that 9bil did not go to them, it went to the shareholders. That’s exploitation, pure and simple. You can support it, if you think it’s a good system, but it is exploitation. Tech companies know that their workers are underpaid for their value - they wouldn’t have had to collude to fix wages if it wasn’t the case. Just because you think you’re very well paid, doesn’t mean you’re not being exploited. All that is setting aside the very obvious reason you should have solidarity with amazon warehouse workers: they are human beings and they provide a service you enjoy, you should not want them to suffer.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  Incredible the shit people will just admit on here sometimes god damn. Points for honesty I guess.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    So I am assuming that every product you buy, every merchant you frequent, every service you utilize…are only providers with active unions? Willing to bet they aren’t…or you don’t know if they are or not, had no idea if they were unionizing or not, and didn’t think to even care before my comment. Thanks for the honesty points.
    - kennywinker 5y ago
      I think it was less about unions and more about your sentiment of only caring about getting a service and not at all about the welfare of the people who bring you that service. As for your hypocrisy accusation - we both know that’s not a valid argument. If you’re anything less than perfect you can't criticize? Nope.
      - kcplate 5y ago
        Reality isn’t always virtuous. The smart phone in your hand or the computer you typed your comment on was likely developed by people who were likely unhappy with their working conditions and wage (assuming they even received one). You still bought it. You justified or overlooked the ugly to get the product you wanted or needed. Your shocked because I said it out loud?
        kennywinker 5y ago
        I’m “shocked” because you basically said the meme out loud https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/capitalism-made-your-iphone https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/capitalism-made-your-iphone The idea that the phone I own invalidates any efforts to improve things is a parody of an argument. If I had the ability to buy a phone that wasn’t made in terrible conditions, I would. If I had the luxury of being able to live without a phone, I would. I don’t, so the idea that now any criticism I have of workers conditions anywhere are invalid is laughable and ignores the numerous and very real ways I vote with my dollars for better working conditions
throwaway09223 5y ago
I think you're wishing they were the same, ideologically. I'm not judging your aspirations, but I am a consumer and I am certainly not in the same socio-economic group as Amazon factory employees - even if I do support some of their struggles.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  > I am certainly not in the same socio-economic group as Amazon factory employees This is exactly the point. Socio-economic groupings ARE political. You feel your interests are different from someone making 30k/year, because of the wedges driven into the working class, but in all likelihood you have much more in common with a warehouse worker than you do with someone whos income comes entirely from their ownership of amazon. Do you worry about losing your job? How many months unemployed before you lose your house? These are things that ownership class people don't have to worry about, but you and an amazon warehouse worker both do.
  - throwaway09223 5y ago
    I don't have a job. My income is derived entirely from my investments. When I was working, I had none of those concerns. You're really off base. Your points are just inaccurate as a matter of fact.
    - kennywinker 5y ago
      Ah, well I wrongly assumed you worked. You’ve moved into the owning class and your interests have been severed from those of working people. Congrats, you’re now living off the efforts of others, and caring about those people’s fate is now fully optional for you.
      - throwaway09223 5y ago
        Actually, the true fact of the matter is that now others are living off the proceeds which resulted from my own past efforts. Your insinuation that my perspective has changed is simply wrong. Of course you can't know; all you have is baseless projections.

kcplate 5y ago

As a consumer my concern is the products I order are delivered when I expect them to be delivered. I am not sure how that crosses with Amazon worker unionization concerns. If Amazon can satisfy my consumer concerns with or without unions, I’m satisfied. They are obviously doing that now. Showing solidarity…what benefit does that give the consumer? It just means sacrifice for me.

kennywinker 5y ago
As a worker, what sets your wage? If you're unionized, collective bargaining. Unions that are stronger are able to better support each other. The better deal amazon's workers get, the better deal you can get. If you're non-unionized, your wage is still impacted by the wages of other employers. Case in point, when amazon raised their minimum wage - other companies were forced to follow suit: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/business/economy/amazon-wage-effect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/business/economy/amazon-w... Sure, if you're a high-payed tech worker, your own wage is pretty disconnected from the warehouse worker market - but not completely. And I bet you have friends and family who's wages are MUCH closer linked.
- throwaway09223 5y ago
  The impact on tech worker wages is probably negative because unionization is associated with lower profits. Especially for tech workers who derive the majority of their income from equity. Highly unionized countries do not tend to have a higher per-capita income across all socioeconomic demographics when compared to the US. It's not clear that unionization is an overall net positive for higher income individuals.
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    Indeed. Granting a one group small ownership stake swings some of their allegiances towards ownership and away from labour. I would ask myself what cost that small slice of ownership you’ve been granted (play on words intended) comes at to the people around you. To me it doesn’t seem very different from buying off union leaders. Are you that easily bought? I.e. maybe supporting unions leads to a smaller gap between your tech salary, and a warehouse worker. That’s still going to benefit you, in that the people around you are less desperate, and have more energy to put into their communities, etc.
    - throwaway09223 5y ago
      Your rhetoric is disgusting and regrettable, but worst of all it's simply inaccurate. I support the right to unionize regardless of whether it benefits me personally. It seems the area where you and I differ is that my commitment to telling the truth regarding the various economic ramifications is more important than my political ideology.
      - kennywinker 5y ago
        I do have a political ideology, but so do you. My overarching point as been to insist that socio-economic class, consumer and worker separation, and stock granting are as political ideas as worker solidarity and class consciousness. But you’re calling that untruthful, and ideologically motivated, and disgusting rhetoric, so I guess we’re probably done
        throwaway09223 5y ago
        I'm calling out your projections. Your posts are riddled with inaccurate blind guesses about me. None of what you're saying is correct, as a simple matter of fact. I encourage you to take a break and think about your perspective. If your points are worth making should be able to make them without these ad-hominem guessing games. Nothing about me is relevant when it comes to objective facts such as the way unions impact economies.
- kcplate 5y ago
  That’s still arguing worker benefits. I am asking as a consumer, what is in it for me to cancel services I use and are happy with to be in solidarity? I don’t see any benefit, only sacrifice. So the only reason I see for acting in solidarity is if you are specifically politically inclined toward them.
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    Again you’re separating your worker identity and your consumer identity. You can’t consume if you don’t work. They are intrinsically linked, but you’re choosing to see them as separated. Yes, Maybe you give up your prime for a few months, but next year when you’re negotiating your salary, you have a stronger collective bargain position (unionized or non)
    - kcplate 5y ago
      Your argument relies on an assumption. You make the assumption that my employer exploits me. They don’t. Perhaps Amazon exploits some of their workers (local drivers, warehouse workers, but tech…hardly). I’d argue that in 2022 with US labor laws…most workers aren’t exploited. Some think they are—some perhaps politically think this soft Marxism you are alluding to is a good thing. So what we have again is a situation where a consumer like me is not in the position of a unionizing Amazon worker so we can’t identify with their labor situation. I don’t have a dogmatic political stance on them unionizing. In their current non-unionized work situation, I’m content to be a customer. In a unionized situation, I’m content to be a customer as long as the product they provide meets my needs. I don’t have a dog in their fight, so there is zero need to me to stop using a product I want to be in solidarity with them.
      - kennywinker 5y ago
        I don’t want to make assumptions about your specific work, so let’s talk about tech workers in general. As an example, Facebook made over $9 billion in profit in 2021. If you work for facebook, you were exploited to the tune of around 9bil/63k employees, so an average of 142k and change. If you distributed that according to current salaries, most tech workers at fb would probably be due a few 100k more per year. Without the labour of their workers, facebook does not exist. From the people who serve lunch to the accountants to the coders. Yet that 9bil did not go to them, it went to the shareholders. That’s exploitation, pure and simple. You can support it, if you think it’s a good system, but it is exploitation. Tech companies know that their workers are underpaid for their value - they wouldn’t have had to collude to fix wages if it wasn’t the case. Just because you think you’re very well paid, doesn’t mean you’re not being exploited. All that is setting aside the very obvious reason you should have solidarity with amazon warehouse workers: they are human beings and they provide a service you enjoy, you should not want them to suffer.
giraffe_lady 5y ago
Incredible the shit people will just admit on here sometimes god damn. Points for honesty I guess.
- kcplate 5y ago
  So I am assuming that every product you buy, every merchant you frequent, every service you utilize…are only providers with active unions? Willing to bet they aren’t…or you don’t know if they are or not, had no idea if they were unionizing or not, and didn’t think to even care before my comment. Thanks for the honesty points.
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    I think it was less about unions and more about your sentiment of only caring about getting a service and not at all about the welfare of the people who bring you that service. As for your hypocrisy accusation - we both know that’s not a valid argument. If you’re anything less than perfect you can't criticize? Nope.
    - kcplate 5y ago
      Reality isn’t always virtuous. The smart phone in your hand or the computer you typed your comment on was likely developed by people who were likely unhappy with their working conditions and wage (assuming they even received one). You still bought it. You justified or overlooked the ugly to get the product you wanted or needed. Your shocked because I said it out loud?
      - kennywinker 5y ago
        I’m “shocked” because you basically said the meme out loud https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/capitalism-made-your-iphone https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/capitalism-made-your-iphone The idea that the phone I own invalidates any efforts to improve things is a parody of an argument. If I had the ability to buy a phone that wasn’t made in terrible conditions, I would. If I had the luxury of being able to live without a phone, I would. I don’t, so the idea that now any criticism I have of workers conditions anywhere are invalid is laughable and ignores the numerous and very real ways I vote with my dollars for better working conditions

throwaway09223 5y ago

I think you're wishing they were the same, ideologically. I'm not judging your aspirations, but I am a consumer and I am certainly not in the same socio-economic group as Amazon factory employees - even if I do support some of their struggles.

kennywinker 5y ago
> I am certainly not in the same socio-economic group as Amazon factory employees This is exactly the point. Socio-economic groupings ARE political. You feel your interests are different from someone making 30k/year, because of the wedges driven into the working class, but in all likelihood you have much more in common with a warehouse worker than you do with someone whos income comes entirely from their ownership of amazon. Do you worry about losing your job? How many months unemployed before you lose your house? These are things that ownership class people don't have to worry about, but you and an amazon warehouse worker both do.
- throwaway09223 5y ago
  I don't have a job. My income is derived entirely from my investments. When I was working, I had none of those concerns. You're really off base. Your points are just inaccurate as a matter of fact.
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    Ah, well I wrongly assumed you worked. You’ve moved into the owning class and your interests have been severed from those of working people. Congrats, you’re now living off the efforts of others, and caring about those people’s fate is now fully optional for you.
    - throwaway09223 5y ago
      Actually, the true fact of the matter is that now others are living off the proceeds which resulted from my own past efforts. Your insinuation that my perspective has changed is simply wrong. Of course you can't know; all you have is baseless projections.