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As someone suffering from Aphantasia [0] (I don't have mental imagery at all) and I've been telling people for the longest time that this is how I relate to the

As someone suffering from Aphantasia [0] (I don't have mental imagery at all) and I've been telling people for the longest time that this is how I relate to the world. I summarize things. Even my mother's face. A post by a Facebook engineer [1] felt like a good way to understand it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia [1] https://medicine.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/medicalschool/research/neuroscience/docs/theeyesmind/Blake_Ross_April_2016_facebook_post_Aphantasia.pdf https://medicine.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/medic...

magicroot75 5y ago
Fellow aphantast here. I can dream and I think its somewhat visual. But when I try to recreate what that visuality was, I can't.
dotnwat 5y ago
Same here. Recently tried to explain this to someone who has vivid imagery, but it was challenging. It seems we do have a wildly different experience of life in this aspect.
- ummwhat 5y ago
  I'll take a stab at it. Imagine you sit at your desk all day answering emails. Emails come in, responses go out. Except when you step back from the desk, it's just a black void. Information from your eyes? That's just an email saying what grandma looks like. Pain in the leg? Re: URGENT. Nothing exists beyond the emails. The emails are reality. The brains representation language is the same as it's actual language. Why have more than one language?
toper-centage 5y ago
I realized some time ago when I learned of Aphantasia that it is a spectrum. From 0 to 10, 10 being perfect photographic memory and zero being total Aphantasia, I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle. I can recall images, sounds, memes, faces, but in terrible quality, with very little color or focus, more similar to fast paced dreams than photographs.
- ansible 5y ago
  I wonder if that's something that can be practiced and improved upon.
  - karmakaze 5y ago
    I've been wondering the same ever since I read that Nikola Tesla invented/designed the AC motor in his mind's eye. Seems to be along the lines of lucid dreaming, with a vast difference in degree. Sometimes as I'm falling asleep I can see vivid scenes or objects that I can--to minor degrees--play with for a short time before I either fall asleep or wake up, then it's gone.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      I would take something written about Tesla on such an intimate level with a grain of salt though. He is very very hyped and often elevated to a God-like level.
      - karmakaze 5y ago
        I don't doubt that some people have this ability and have no reason to think Tesla wasn't one of them. His feats are perhaps even more remarkable if he didn't have any superpower abilities such as this.
    - LesZedCB 5y ago
      also, consider somebody who is an expert already in the problem domain. most of us here are programmers and do this on a daily basis. somebody describes "A GraphQL API driven by a clojure back end connected to a postgres database" and to a layperson that looks like either a bunch of nonsense words or maybe a few boxes, clouds, and arrows. but to you and me we can visualize the individual lines of code, configurations, functions, and infrastructural requirements behind that simple sentence. same with an electrical engineer/inventor in their domain.
      - karmakaze 5y ago
throw1234651234 5y ago
I am very interested in the topic, and have been looking into it for ages. I think most people vastly exaggerate their ability to visualize anything. Most people can't really hold a square or a sphere in their mind, rotate it, or change colors. The only people who truly can are really good artists. My point - you may be mis-diagnosing yourself, especially since aphantasia doesn't seem to have clear tests or definitions. How could it, if a verifiable test would be to ask a person to draw what they see, and obviously that confuses the whole test with one's art skill.
- ThalesX 5y ago
  Could be that I am mis-diagnosing myself. I've never seen a mental image in my mind. I've never been able to conjure one and I've been trying for years before falling asleep to conjure even a sense of color. Nothing. Black. To be honest, it doesn't feel like such a handicap to my life that I would start submitting myself to clinical trials. If the worst to come out of my mis-diagnosis is this post, I can live with it.
- dqpb 5y ago
  I’ve always thought of myself as being fairly good at visualization. For example, I can imagine multiple 3D shapes at one time, rotate them, keep track of which direction a face is pointing on each one, etc. However, I don’t really “see” any image. It’s more like a feeling of seeing it. Now I’m wondering to what extent other people actually see things they imagine…
  - thinkingemote 5y ago
    a good test would be: Look at this thing, and describe what you see Now, close your eyes and imagine another thing and describe it comparison of imagery in reality and visualised. This presupposes people describe things visually even when directly seeing them, and not in other modes (texture, sound, smell , etc)
- Workaccount2 5y ago
  I am an atrocious artist who absolutely kicks ass at those mental object rotation tests. I can very easily manipulate objects in my head, but draw a picture? It's an ugly mess.
Borrible 5y ago
I am aphantast, but I do not suffer from it. When I am fully conscious, I have no inner vision, but I have vivd and colorfull dreams. If I remember them, outside that twilight zone shortly before full awakening. So I have an idea what it probably is like to have inner vision when fully awake. Allthough there are some disadvantages, of course. I admire people that are able to draw and paint based on their inner vision. Much more important for me was the realization that I can evoke images, scenes, etc. in other people that trigger feelings in them. Which in turn can trigger actions or omissions. Fear, joy, hate, love, disgust, lust. Which they can't do to me, at least not just by invoking visual images in my mind through words. Manipulative, but not manipulatable in this regard. With time, that came in handy. By the way, I am friends with a handful of people who suffer from schizophrenia. They say they envy me a little because in their worst phases they wished they didn't have this movie in their head. It repeats itself, over and over again. And aphantasia is a spectrum, I have known people who describe rather dull, colorless inner visions and others who can sustain them only for short periods of time. On the other hand, I met an artist who seemed to live in his own private vibrating Van Gogh painting. Judging by his descriptions. And of course, without DMT.
- ThalesX 5y ago
  > Much more important for me was the realization that I can evoke images, scenes, etc. in other people that trigger feelings in them. Which in turn can trigger actions or omissions. Fear, joy, hate, love, disgust, lust. Which they can't do to me, at least not just by invoking visual images in my mind through words. Manipulative, but not manipulatable in this regard. With time, that came in handy. I've also discovered this but I can only admit it to my closest friends else I'd be labeled a psychopath. There are things that trigger these kind of feelings in me, but it's more about situations than images and never in remembering something. I do have a feeling that we might be more susceptible to do really nasty deeds if push comes to shove (Nazi Germany?) so I think it's something we need to be careful about as we can be manipulated into doing things that other people might find gut wrenching just thinking about.
  - Borrible 5y ago
    Which is the greater danger: the fearless few or the fearful masses? Who kills more, the ice-cold predator or the whipped-up herd of people? Of course, for hell on earth, you need both.
tcangussu 5y ago
Never heard about this before and it seems I'm on the 0 side of the spectrum!

magicroot75 5y ago

Fellow aphantast here. I can dream and I think its somewhat visual. But when I try to recreate what that visuality was, I can't.

dotnwat 5y ago

Same here. Recently tried to explain this to someone who has vivid imagery, but it was challenging. It seems we do have a wildly different experience of life in this aspect.

ummwhat 5y ago
I'll take a stab at it. Imagine you sit at your desk all day answering emails. Emails come in, responses go out. Except when you step back from the desk, it's just a black void. Information from your eyes? That's just an email saying what grandma looks like. Pain in the leg? Re: URGENT. Nothing exists beyond the emails. The emails are reality. The brains representation language is the same as it's actual language. Why have more than one language?

toper-centage 5y ago

I realized some time ago when I learned of Aphantasia that it is a spectrum. From 0 to 10, 10 being perfect photographic memory and zero being total Aphantasia, I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle. I can recall images, sounds, memes, faces, but in terrible quality, with very little color or focus, more similar to fast paced dreams than photographs.

ansible 5y ago
I wonder if that's something that can be practiced and improved upon.
- karmakaze 5y ago
  I've been wondering the same ever since I read that Nikola Tesla invented/designed the AC motor in his mind's eye. Seems to be along the lines of lucid dreaming, with a vast difference in degree. Sometimes as I'm falling asleep I can see vivid scenes or objects that I can--to minor degrees--play with for a short time before I either fall asleep or wake up, then it's gone.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    I would take something written about Tesla on such an intimate level with a grain of salt though. He is very very hyped and often elevated to a God-like level.
    - karmakaze 5y ago
      I don't doubt that some people have this ability and have no reason to think Tesla wasn't one of them. His feats are perhaps even more remarkable if he didn't have any superpower abilities such as this.
  - LesZedCB 5y ago
    also, consider somebody who is an expert already in the problem domain. most of us here are programmers and do this on a daily basis. somebody describes "A GraphQL API driven by a clojure back end connected to a postgres database" and to a layperson that looks like either a bunch of nonsense words or maybe a few boxes, clouds, and arrows. but to you and me we can visualize the individual lines of code, configurations, functions, and infrastructural requirements behind that simple sentence. same with an electrical engineer/inventor in their domain.
    - karmakaze 5y ago

throw1234651234 5y ago

I am very interested in the topic, and have been looking into it for ages. I think most people vastly exaggerate their ability to visualize anything. Most people can't really hold a square or a sphere in their mind, rotate it, or change colors. The only people who truly can are really good artists. My point - you may be mis-diagnosing yourself, especially since aphantasia doesn't seem to have clear tests or definitions. How could it, if a verifiable test would be to ask a person to draw what they see, and obviously that confuses the whole test with one's art skill.

ThalesX 5y ago
Could be that I am mis-diagnosing myself. I've never seen a mental image in my mind. I've never been able to conjure one and I've been trying for years before falling asleep to conjure even a sense of color. Nothing. Black. To be honest, it doesn't feel like such a handicap to my life that I would start submitting myself to clinical trials. If the worst to come out of my mis-diagnosis is this post, I can live with it.
dqpb 5y ago
I’ve always thought of myself as being fairly good at visualization. For example, I can imagine multiple 3D shapes at one time, rotate them, keep track of which direction a face is pointing on each one, etc. However, I don’t really “see” any image. It’s more like a feeling of seeing it. Now I’m wondering to what extent other people actually see things they imagine…
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  a good test would be: Look at this thing, and describe what you see Now, close your eyes and imagine another thing and describe it comparison of imagery in reality and visualised. This presupposes people describe things visually even when directly seeing them, and not in other modes (texture, sound, smell , etc)
Workaccount2 5y ago
I am an atrocious artist who absolutely kicks ass at those mental object rotation tests. I can very easily manipulate objects in my head, but draw a picture? It's an ugly mess.

Borrible 5y ago

I am aphantast, but I do not suffer from it. When I am fully conscious, I have no inner vision, but I have vivd and colorfull dreams. If I remember them, outside that twilight zone shortly before full awakening. So I have an idea what it probably is like to have inner vision when fully awake. Allthough there are some disadvantages, of course. I admire people that are able to draw and paint based on their inner vision. Much more important for me was the realization that I can evoke images, scenes, etc. in other people that trigger feelings in them. Which in turn can trigger actions or omissions. Fear, joy, hate, love, disgust, lust. Which they can't do to me, at least not just by invoking visual images in my mind through words. Manipulative, but not manipulatable in this regard. With time, that came in handy. By the way, I am friends with a handful of people who suffer from schizophrenia. They say they envy me a little because in their worst phases they wished they didn't have this movie in their head. It repeats itself, over and over again. And aphantasia is a spectrum, I have known people who describe rather dull, colorless inner visions and others who can sustain them only for short periods of time. On the other hand, I met an artist who seemed to live in his own private vibrating Van Gogh painting. Judging by his descriptions. And of course, without DMT.

ThalesX 5y ago
> Much more important for me was the realization that I can evoke images, scenes, etc. in other people that trigger feelings in them. Which in turn can trigger actions or omissions. Fear, joy, hate, love, disgust, lust. Which they can't do to me, at least not just by invoking visual images in my mind through words. Manipulative, but not manipulatable in this regard. With time, that came in handy. I've also discovered this but I can only admit it to my closest friends else I'd be labeled a psychopath. There are things that trigger these kind of feelings in me, but it's more about situations than images and never in remembering something. I do have a feeling that we might be more susceptible to do really nasty deeds if push comes to shove (Nazi Germany?) so I think it's something we need to be careful about as we can be manipulated into doing things that other people might find gut wrenching just thinking about.
- Borrible 5y ago
  Which is the greater danger: the fearless few or the fearful masses? Who kills more, the ice-cold predator or the whipped-up herd of people? Of course, for hell on earth, you need both.

tcangussu 5y ago

Never heard about this before and it seems I'm on the 0 side of the spectrum!