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> A ec2 instance or other vps requires the exact same maintenance as a bare metal server. They are essentially the same except one is virtualised and the other

> A ec2 instance or other vps requires the exact same maintenance as a bare metal server. They are essentially the same except one is virtualised and the other isn’t. Ani. If the hardware you’re running on is dying. In ec2 you stop it and start it. It’s on new hardware. If you run bare metal you’re screwed. Disk is dying ? Don’t matter cos your data exists multiple times over in AWS elastic storage. With bare metal you got to shut down and replace. The cost of managing hardware is gone with ec2. Software on the other hand yes that is the same amount of effort.

dhzhzjsbevs 5y ago
The cost isn't gone. It's just included. Fact is, at scale, it's still cheaper to do it yourself. You just need to reach the scale it's worth paying people to do the managing.
- BryanRamirez 5y ago
  I agree, with the caveat that at scale it's cheaper to do it well yourself. If that weren't true, then Amazon would not be making money on EC2. If you don't have sysadmins and network admins with the right experience, you can easily find yourself in a bad spot with single points of failure, servers that can't be easily replaced, oversubscribed PDUs, misconfigured switches/routers... and any number of other problems that aren't occurring to me right now.
  - dhzhzjsbevs 5y ago
    This is very true. You also probably need the scale having multiple install locations makes sense. We went dedicated early and while it didn't make sense at the time we now run at way lower cost than the competition could dream of.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    If you don't have sysadmins with the right experience, there is a vast number of companies that can do this for you on a fractional basis on retainer. I was one of them. The crossover point where cloud is more expensive is really low even if you have zero in-house experience. Exactly where it is depends on your amount of egress, as that is where AWS in particular really takes advantage of you.
GTP 5y ago
>Disk is dying ? Don’t matter cos your data exists multiple times over in AWS elastic storage. With bare metal you got to shut down and replace. Not really, this is what RAID is for
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Depending somewhat on the quality of the hardware in question. Hot swap capable isn't rare, but it's not going to happen at the bottom of the price continuum.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  Sure, raids some drives together, you still have downtime when you switch it off replace the drive switch it on wait for it to rebuild. Or you can fork out the extra cost to have hot swappable. If you're saying: "I dont want to pay $300 / month for EC2 instances at AWS when I can get the same hardware specs for $150 at X" Chances are you're getting a shitty old desktop or barebones rack that lacks features like hot swap and raids. Do you believe you're getting redundancy when you go with hetzner and a cheap desktop grade processor, ddr4 non ecc memory, and a consumer grade SSD?
  - vidarh 5y ago
    There is no extra cost to have hot swappable unless you're considering buying consumer grade hardware, but consumer grade hardware is more expensive to host because it won't fit in 1U bays. > Do you believe you're getting redundancy when you go with hetzner and a cheap desktop grade processor, ddr4 non ecc memory, and a consumer grade SSD? Irrespective of how much I'd skimp on the hardware, I always have a HA setup, including on EC2, so it doesn't matter in any case.
marcosdumay 5y ago
> In ec2 you stop it and start it. It’s on new hardware. If you run bare metal you’re screwed. You mean, you reimage? That is the slow step, you reimage, and plug the new server. Wait a bit, and your service has one more server. > With bare metal you got to shut down and replace. You take the disk out and plug a new one. You don't turn things off because of a disk. No doubt, those are costly. They are also rare (disk failure is less rare, but still rare).
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  > You mean, you reimage? That is the slow step, you reimage, and plug the new server. Wait a bit, and your service has one more server. No. When you /stop/ an EC2 instance, and /start/ it again, it moves. You do not need to reimage. This is even requested from AWS when they are having hardware failures and need to move customers off so they can decomission the hardware. They request you stop / start the instance, if you do not do it by the due date they do it for you. > You take the disk out and plug a new one. You don't turn things off because of a disk. If you have a storage array sure. But if you're getting bare metal hosting from a provider, you're not always getting hot swappable storage arrays. > No doubt, those are costly. They are also rare (disk failure is less rare, but still rare). It was 1 example, obviously there's many different hardware issues that can go wrong.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    > If you have a storage array sure. But if you're getting bare metal hosting from a provider, you're not always getting hot swappable storage arrays. If you have any server-level hardware bought in the last 20 years or so, it will have the drives in hot-swappable bays. If you then choose to not set it up in RAID, it's just incompetence. > If you have a storage array sure. But if you're getting bare metal hosting from a provider, you're not always getting hot swappable storage arrays. If you're getting bare metal hosting from anywhere including your own colo, you have failover and the ability to order replacements while your system is still running. This is only an issue if you're architecture is fundamentally flawed, in which case you're likely to mess things up whether you're on bare metal or in a cloud.
ludjer 5y ago
Not really If you running bare metal and have a San you can easily change what it is pointing to. Also most bare metal servers have redundancy and disks can be changed with 0 down time.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  So now you're throwing a ton more money at something, costing you in purchasing the bare metal, but also the cost to maintain it. If you want to build compariable redundancy as you get with EC2 it will cost you. It wont be cheaper.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    I have no idea what you think the costs of this is. I have managed setups like that. Every year we priced out what a cost to EC2 would cost us, and every year it was about 3x the cost of running our own, with my time - accounted for to the hour - of running the system added in. Every year we also priced out Hetzner and a few other options. After a years Hetzner eventually won out (colo space in Germany was cheaper than where we were in London). So we tied Hetzner servers into our private cloud layer, and migrated containers and shut down servers as it fit into our schedule. Not having to physically go to the colo's to swap drives now and again saved me an average of maybe 2 days a month to deal with several racks worth of hardware.
    - maccard 5y ago
      > Every year we priced out what a cost to EC2 would cost us, and every year it was about 3x the cost of running our own > we tied Hetzner servers into our private cloud layer, and migrated containers and shut down servers as it fit Building your own services on top of AWS is always going to come out more expensive. EC2 + EBS volumes alone are going to be more expensive than going with hetzner (particularly if you're not looking at reserved instances, and not utilising spot for burst). You mentioned that you are building your own private cloud layer and migrated containers; the cost of building that out in the first place is likely enormous compared to building and running on top of fargate.

dhzhzjsbevs 5y ago

The cost isn't gone. It's just included. Fact is, at scale, it's still cheaper to do it yourself. You just need to reach the scale it's worth paying people to do the managing.

BryanRamirez 5y ago
I agree, with the caveat that at scale it's cheaper to do it well yourself. If that weren't true, then Amazon would not be making money on EC2. If you don't have sysadmins and network admins with the right experience, you can easily find yourself in a bad spot with single points of failure, servers that can't be easily replaced, oversubscribed PDUs, misconfigured switches/routers... and any number of other problems that aren't occurring to me right now.
- dhzhzjsbevs 5y ago
  This is very true. You also probably need the scale having multiple install locations makes sense. We went dedicated early and while it didn't make sense at the time we now run at way lower cost than the competition could dream of.
- vidarh 5y ago
  If you don't have sysadmins with the right experience, there is a vast number of companies that can do this for you on a fractional basis on retainer. I was one of them. The crossover point where cloud is more expensive is really low even if you have zero in-house experience. Exactly where it is depends on your amount of egress, as that is where AWS in particular really takes advantage of you.

GTP 5y ago

>Disk is dying ? Don’t matter cos your data exists multiple times over in AWS elastic storage. With bare metal you got to shut down and replace. Not really, this is what RAID is for

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Depending somewhat on the quality of the hardware in question. Hot swap capable isn't rare, but it's not going to happen at the bottom of the price continuum.
philliphaydon 5y ago
Sure, raids some drives together, you still have downtime when you switch it off replace the drive switch it on wait for it to rebuild. Or you can fork out the extra cost to have hot swappable. If you're saying: "I dont want to pay $300 / month for EC2 instances at AWS when I can get the same hardware specs for $150 at X" Chances are you're getting a shitty old desktop or barebones rack that lacks features like hot swap and raids. Do you believe you're getting redundancy when you go with hetzner and a cheap desktop grade processor, ddr4 non ecc memory, and a consumer grade SSD?
- vidarh 5y ago
  There is no extra cost to have hot swappable unless you're considering buying consumer grade hardware, but consumer grade hardware is more expensive to host because it won't fit in 1U bays. > Do you believe you're getting redundancy when you go with hetzner and a cheap desktop grade processor, ddr4 non ecc memory, and a consumer grade SSD? Irrespective of how much I'd skimp on the hardware, I always have a HA setup, including on EC2, so it doesn't matter in any case.

marcosdumay 5y ago

> In ec2 you stop it and start it. It’s on new hardware. If you run bare metal you’re screwed. You mean, you reimage? That is the slow step, you reimage, and plug the new server. Wait a bit, and your service has one more server. > With bare metal you got to shut down and replace. You take the disk out and plug a new one. You don't turn things off because of a disk. No doubt, those are costly. They are also rare (disk failure is less rare, but still rare).

philliphaydon 5y ago
> You mean, you reimage? That is the slow step, you reimage, and plug the new server. Wait a bit, and your service has one more server. No. When you /stop/ an EC2 instance, and /start/ it again, it moves. You do not need to reimage. This is even requested from AWS when they are having hardware failures and need to move customers off so they can decomission the hardware. They request you stop / start the instance, if you do not do it by the due date they do it for you. > You take the disk out and plug a new one. You don't turn things off because of a disk. If you have a storage array sure. But if you're getting bare metal hosting from a provider, you're not always getting hot swappable storage arrays. > No doubt, those are costly. They are also rare (disk failure is less rare, but still rare). It was 1 example, obviously there's many different hardware issues that can go wrong.
- vidarh 5y ago
  > If you have a storage array sure. But if you're getting bare metal hosting from a provider, you're not always getting hot swappable storage arrays. If you have any server-level hardware bought in the last 20 years or so, it will have the drives in hot-swappable bays. If you then choose to not set it up in RAID, it's just incompetence. > If you have a storage array sure. But if you're getting bare metal hosting from a provider, you're not always getting hot swappable storage arrays. If you're getting bare metal hosting from anywhere including your own colo, you have failover and the ability to order replacements while your system is still running. This is only an issue if you're architecture is fundamentally flawed, in which case you're likely to mess things up whether you're on bare metal or in a cloud.

ludjer 5y ago

Not really If you running bare metal and have a San you can easily change what it is pointing to. Also most bare metal servers have redundancy and disks can be changed with 0 down time.

philliphaydon 5y ago
So now you're throwing a ton more money at something, costing you in purchasing the bare metal, but also the cost to maintain it. If you want to build compariable redundancy as you get with EC2 it will cost you. It wont be cheaper.
- vidarh 5y ago
  I have no idea what you think the costs of this is. I have managed setups like that. Every year we priced out what a cost to EC2 would cost us, and every year it was about 3x the cost of running our own, with my time - accounted for to the hour - of running the system added in. Every year we also priced out Hetzner and a few other options. After a years Hetzner eventually won out (colo space in Germany was cheaper than where we were in London). So we tied Hetzner servers into our private cloud layer, and migrated containers and shut down servers as it fit into our schedule. Not having to physically go to the colo's to swap drives now and again saved me an average of maybe 2 days a month to deal with several racks worth of hardware.
  - maccard 5y ago
    > Every year we priced out what a cost to EC2 would cost us, and every year it was about 3x the cost of running our own > we tied Hetzner servers into our private cloud layer, and migrated containers and shut down servers as it fit Building your own services on top of AWS is always going to come out more expensive. EC2 + EBS volumes alone are going to be more expensive than going with hetzner (particularly if you're not looking at reserved instances, and not utilising spot for burst). You mentioned that you are building your own private cloud layer and migrated containers; the cost of building that out in the first place is likely enormous compared to building and running on top of fargate.