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I hate the fact that hiring now basically requires cloud experience specific to vendors. This is basically going to force people into one of the three major clo

by lvl102 5y ago

I hate the fact that hiring now basically requires cloud experience specific to vendors. This is basically going to force people into one of the three major cloud platforms.

pzduniak 5y ago
Eh, it depends on the features that you're using. As long as you stick to the basic stack of Terraform + Kubernetes / IaaS with cloudinit + networking + S3-compatible storage API, you can quite easily jump between clouds. Sure, the logic that sets them up is different, but the concepts are generally roughly the same. Even if I end up choosing a managed service, I always implement a second OSS backend that gets regularly tested. Every day I deal with AWS, Google Cloud and Oracle Cloud. Previously I used DigitalOcean and OVH. I have no issues onboarding people to work with the less popular options - as long as they get how Kubernetes / Linux / containers work, it's pretty good.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  This is what I've come to realise too, as long as you can and do stick your workloads in Kubernetes it doesn't really matter what he logo says. EKS, AKE, GKE, LKE, DOKS, OKD, Rancher... Whatever they're all compatible with what you want to do. There are definitely upsides to the cloud, but Kubernetes is the common denominator everywhere. Wanna run GPU workloads on-prem? Buy some servers and do so. The only hairy thing is managing your own storage, quite the responsibility. (Look at Atlassian right now).
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    GCE https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/cluster-administration/cluster-management/ https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/cluster-administration/c... GKE https://cloud.google.com/container-engine/docs/cluster-autoscaler https://cloud.google.com/container-engine/docs/cluster-autos... AWS https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/aws/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Azure https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/azure/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Alibaba Cloud https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/alicloud/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Brightbox https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/brightbox/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... OpenStack Magnum https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/magnum/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... DigitalOcean https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/digitalocean/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... CloudStack https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/cloudstack/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Exoscale https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/exoscale/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Equinix Metal https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/packet/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... OVHcloud https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/ovhcloud/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Linode https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/linode/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... OCI https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/oci/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Hetzner https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/hetzner/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Cluster API https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/clusterapi/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Vultr https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/vultr/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... TencentCloud https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/tencentcloud/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... These are all cloud providers that invested into their own managed Kubernetes, I'm certain all of them aren't as sleek as the big three, but it shows that there's definitely momentum behind sticking your workloads into Kubernetes.
    - CodesInChaos 5y ago
      Most of those seem to be kubernetes autoscaler plugins that allow your cluster to manage resources in that cloud. That's quite different from cloud providers managing the cluster.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Sure, but wait for certain HR departments or RFP documents requiring specific certificates as gatekeeping job or specific product deals, and so the business of cloud architect certification goes on.
- formerkrogemp 5y ago
  Y'all are always recommending "if you stick to tech stack a, b, and c , then you can always have good work," but a year or two later you'll recommend learning or expertise in "x, y, and c." You're the first person I've seen recommend a vague, general-ish skillset.
goodpoint 5y ago
AKA lock-in. It was their strategy all along and the developer community fell for the trap once again.
bsenftner 5y ago
Unless, like OP, you work in a high compute field. High compute and the cloud simply do not mix, because the cloud is optimized for web apps, which require practically no real compute power. The cloud has it's purposes, as does the web, and they are not the only game in town.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Or high-bandwidth. Egress bandwidth charges on the cloud are robbery.
anonymousDan 5y ago
For someone with a good general understanding of systems (distributed systems, operating systems etc), but perhaps lacking in hands on experience of deploying in a specific cloud, what would you say the key things are to learn? For me they almost seem like trivial things you could pick up in no time on the job.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Product-specific functionality & configuration. Every cloud provider has their own product, features & configuration for the same basic thing. In the past, if you needed a load-balancer & reverse proxy you'd use Nginx or HAProxy regardless of the underlying machine. Now in the cloud, although you can technically run it on a VM, it's not "best practice" and you should instead reimplement it using your cloud vendor's proprietary equivalent, whether it's AWS ELB/ALB or something else, and that experience isn't portable across competing clouds.
  - criddell 5y ago
    I'm pretty confident that somebody who has been able to master one provider is going to be able to figure out a different one relatively quickly. I think that breadth of knowledge could ultimately be pretty valuable.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    "In the past" ? My current employer, a high growth company uses HAProxy and Nginx in production with no plan to change anytime soon. Those are not tools from the past. They still work really well and there is no law requiring your brand new startup to be on AWS. Most companies (even more when they are B2B) have very predictable workloads.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      > there is no law requiring your brand new startup to be on AWS See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30272588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30272588.
rcarmo 5y ago
Most of the skills are transferable. Yes, APIs and provisioning tools can be different, but Terraform and Kubernetes abstract a lot away unless you really need to use PaaS (which can be a lot more useful than VM-centric folk usually care for). But anyone who’s done infra at scale can easily get up to speed on any of the big three—-as long as you take the time to understand the differences, and actually model costs before starting to play around.
vsareto 5y ago
There's enough jobs where they're okay with any cloud experience. You might lose access to thousands of jobs by not having Azure on your resume, but there's tens of thousands where it isn't a strict requirement.
paxys 5y ago
Hiring for what? 95% of software roles out there don't need you to know what a cloud or server even is. If you are specifically going into ops/DBA/sysadmin type roles, then knowing the basics about the top service providers out there isn't too much to ask for.

by lvl102 5y ago

I hate the fact that hiring now basically requires cloud experience specific to vendors. This is basically going to force people into one of the three major cloud platforms.

pzduniak 5y ago

Eh, it depends on the features that you're using. As long as you stick to the basic stack of Terraform + Kubernetes / IaaS with cloudinit + networking + S3-compatible storage API, you can quite easily jump between clouds. Sure, the logic that sets them up is different, but the concepts are generally roughly the same. Even if I end up choosing a managed service, I always implement a second OSS backend that gets regularly tested. Every day I deal with AWS, Google Cloud and Oracle Cloud. Previously I used DigitalOcean and OVH. I have no issues onboarding people to work with the less popular options - as long as they get how Kubernetes / Linux / containers work, it's pretty good.

lillecarl 5y ago
This is what I've come to realise too, as long as you can and do stick your workloads in Kubernetes it doesn't really matter what he logo says. EKS, AKE, GKE, LKE, DOKS, OKD, Rancher... Whatever they're all compatible with what you want to do. There are definitely upsides to the cloud, but Kubernetes is the common denominator everywhere. Wanna run GPU workloads on-prem? Buy some servers and do so. The only hairy thing is managing your own storage, quite the responsibility. (Look at Atlassian right now).
- lillecarl 5y ago
  GCE https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/cluster-administration/cluster-management/ https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/cluster-administration/c... GKE https://cloud.google.com/container-engine/docs/cluster-autoscaler https://cloud.google.com/container-engine/docs/cluster-autos... AWS https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/aws/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Azure https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/azure/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Alibaba Cloud https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/alicloud/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Brightbox https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/brightbox/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... OpenStack Magnum https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/magnum/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... DigitalOcean https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/digitalocean/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... CloudStack https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/cloudstack/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Exoscale https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/exoscale/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Equinix Metal https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/packet/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... OVHcloud https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/ovhcloud/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Linode https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/linode/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... OCI https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/oci/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Hetzner https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/hetzner/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Cluster API https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/clusterapi/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... Vultr https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/vultr/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... TencentCloud https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster-autoscaler/cloudprovider/tencentcloud/README.md https://github.com/kubernetes/autoscaler/blob/master/cluster... These are all cloud providers that invested into their own managed Kubernetes, I'm certain all of them aren't as sleek as the big three, but it shows that there's definitely momentum behind sticking your workloads into Kubernetes.
  - CodesInChaos 5y ago
    Most of those seem to be kubernetes autoscaler plugins that allow your cluster to manage resources in that cloud. That's quite different from cloud providers managing the cluster.
pjmlp 5y ago
Sure, but wait for certain HR departments or RFP documents requiring specific certificates as gatekeeping job or specific product deals, and so the business of cloud architect certification goes on.
formerkrogemp 5y ago
Y'all are always recommending "if you stick to tech stack a, b, and c , then you can always have good work," but a year or two later you'll recommend learning or expertise in "x, y, and c." You're the first person I've seen recommend a vague, general-ish skillset.

goodpoint 5y ago

AKA lock-in. It was their strategy all along and the developer community fell for the trap once again.

bsenftner 5y ago

Unless, like OP, you work in a high compute field. High compute and the cloud simply do not mix, because the cloud is optimized for web apps, which require practically no real compute power. The cloud has it's purposes, as does the web, and they are not the only game in town.

Nextgrid 5y ago
Or high-bandwidth. Egress bandwidth charges on the cloud are robbery.

anonymousDan 5y ago

For someone with a good general understanding of systems (distributed systems, operating systems etc), but perhaps lacking in hands on experience of deploying in a specific cloud, what would you say the key things are to learn? For me they almost seem like trivial things you could pick up in no time on the job.

Nextgrid 5y ago
Product-specific functionality & configuration. Every cloud provider has their own product, features & configuration for the same basic thing. In the past, if you needed a load-balancer & reverse proxy you'd use Nginx or HAProxy regardless of the underlying machine. Now in the cloud, although you can technically run it on a VM, it's not "best practice" and you should instead reimplement it using your cloud vendor's proprietary equivalent, whether it's AWS ELB/ALB or something else, and that experience isn't portable across competing clouds.
- criddell 5y ago
  I'm pretty confident that somebody who has been able to master one provider is going to be able to figure out a different one relatively quickly. I think that breadth of knowledge could ultimately be pretty valuable.
- pjerem 5y ago
  "In the past" ? My current employer, a high growth company uses HAProxy and Nginx in production with no plan to change anytime soon. Those are not tools from the past. They still work really well and there is no law requiring your brand new startup to be on AWS. Most companies (even more when they are B2B) have very predictable workloads.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > there is no law requiring your brand new startup to be on AWS See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30272588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30272588.

rcarmo 5y ago

Most of the skills are transferable. Yes, APIs and provisioning tools can be different, but Terraform and Kubernetes abstract a lot away unless you really need to use PaaS (which can be a lot more useful than VM-centric folk usually care for). But anyone who’s done infra at scale can easily get up to speed on any of the big three—-as long as you take the time to understand the differences, and actually model costs before starting to play around.

vsareto 5y ago

There's enough jobs where they're okay with any cloud experience. You might lose access to thousands of jobs by not having Azure on your resume, but there's tens of thousands where it isn't a strict requirement.

paxys 5y ago

Hiring for what? 95% of software roles out there don't need you to know what a cloud or server even is. If you are specifically going into ops/DBA/sysadmin type roles, then knowing the basics about the top service providers out there isn't too much to ask for.