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Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses
- ATsch 5y ago
- throwaway290 5y agoMany details are not that difficult to cross-check. Similar stories (typically involving mixed part-Uyghur families torn apart by Chinese government) are abound on social media. BBC, others reported extensively on other victims as well as relevant findings from satellite imagery etc. From my understanding this is less about uncovering some categorically new information, but more about someone able to testify in court on what everyone sort of knew already.
- ATsch 5y agoI think this is somewhat optimistic about the degree to which the goal is going to be to uncover the actual truth vs painting the worst possible picture they can to justify whatever interventions they have planned.
- throwaway290 5y agoWhat you learn from ordinary people's accounts makes the current amount of pressure on China on this issue laughable.
- tabokie 5y agoI'm glad you mentioned. Those satellite images are jokes to most Chinese people. In fact, the western media's coverage of Xinjiang has demonstrated your hypocrisy to those of us who didn't know it before. After this, I think it's safe to say that western mainstream media has lost its credibility in China. Some of us (not me) don't even believe Bucha massacre, just because we heard it from your mouths. Just for your consideration, I'm a pretty liberal person and I don't like my government more than you do. And I have plans to immigrate to EU in near future.
- thfuran 5y ago>Those satellite images are jokes to most Chinese people. Why? >In fact, the western media's coverage of Xinjiang has demonstrated your hypocrisy to those of us who didn't know it before. How so?
- tabokie 5y agoFor the first question, most of us choose to believe our fellow citizens (who can easily travel to the regions highlighted in those satellite images) over western reporters. Plus the criminal acts described in western media sound more like US's doing rather than what we could picture our public officials. The second one is more complicated. Our public consensus is, we *need* to apply some policies in Xinjing that can seem more "restraining" than the rest of China. It's because the west has chosen Xinjiang as one of its handles of infiltration. Historically, several major armed riots have happened in this area. Hundreds if not more Han (the majority ethnic group) civilians were killed. Also there is this sanction on Xinjiang cotton. We all know how small Xinjiang's economy is within China. The sanction only does harm to Xinjiang's people than it influenced those policies. And yes, it is such a typical western propaganda tool that is drenched with consumerism.
- Iwan-Zotow 5y agothere is no bucha massacre, all of it is us media invention
- throwaway290 5y agoI am Russian and I have been informed about the hypocrisy of the communist regime that my parents grew up in. Yes, train tickets are cheap, but a pretty big downside is that citizens can only think what power-hungry country bosses demand them to think. I do not have an opinion on Bucha because I did not study evidence yet. However, while some Western media exaggerated at some points, it is not even remotely comparable with lies told by the Russian side. (I have relatives in Ukraine who had to leave a city as it was being destroyed by military activity, so I know a fair bit from their words.) Priors tell me Bucha news is likely to be at least 50% true, sadly.
- 5y ago
- xtian 5y agoWe had satellite images of WMDs in Iraq, right? What happened?
- rabite 5y ago[flagged]
- mschuster91 5y ago> Why is nobody ever trying to bring criminal cases against the US government in the ICC? The USA are not party to the ICC treaty, simple as that.
- rabite 5y agoThe Chinese are not a party to the ICC treaty (the OP article above even mentions this, they are just "establishing ICC jurisdiction" e.g. coming up with an excuse for hostile actions toward China)
- propagandist 5y agoIt's a little more interesting than that. The US has indicated it would invade if its servicemembers were prosecuted. The act is colloquially referred to as The Hague Invasion Act.
- throwaway290 5y agoHe's not a single witness, they used the term "key witness" (whatever that means). This is hardly news, there is just more detail that this person will hopefully testify on.
- zthrowaway 5y agoStory about how bad China treats its people, “there’s definitely going to be a ‘But the west!’ ridiculous whataboutism. And here we are. I feel like I can predict comments on HN threads these days and it’s pretty sad.
- throwaway4good 5y ago
- mlindner 5y ago"phenomenon" is what I would use to describe China's historical actions, not America's.
- propagandist 5y ago
- oneoff786 5y agoYour account name is propagandist
- propagandist 5y agoSolid observation. Please proceed to disregard my propaganda and consume information strictly from state-sanctioned entities.
- dave_sullivan 5y agoThey have, and there will be more. The US should continue to listen and consider how they can change. Avoiding the topic is not a viable way forward.
- saiya-jin 5y agoThat's all nice and reads even nicer, but hell will freeze sooner than mercenary bands like former Blackwater will be prosecuted in US for war crimes they provably committed. I mean real prosecution, with life/death sentences for murders of civilians, not some sham trial just to tick a box. The topic is out there for more than a decade. Nobody actually cares that much. There is simply 0 political will, and the dirty work done needs to be done by somebody (in the vein of 'we need to invade yet another country for blah reasons' vein of logic). Naive me hopes Ukraine will change US population mindset towards offensive wars done for 0 good reasons.
- VerminOctopus1 5y agoPeople get upset by these “whataboutism” posts but they’re perfectly legitimate points to make. It’s good to interrogate the media that we consume and to consider the conditions that would lead to an article like this being produced and published. Side note, there’s been a flood of anti-China content on this website lately, it’s odd.
- 5y ago
- plouffy 5y agoHolly molly, the whatsaboutism in these comments.
- propagandist 5y agoIf a had a penny every time ... There needs to be a better response to pointing out hypocrisy. If you care about China's abuses but not ours and our allies, you do not have the moral high ground, and morality is a political tool to you.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- puszczyk 5y agoHave you tired to raise specific US abuses here on HN? What was the response?
- vachina 5y agoYou get your account and IP address shadowbanned.
- yellowapple 5y agoIs that so? I'm pretty vocal about the atrocities my country perpetrated and continues to perpetrate, and I've yet to be shadowbanned.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- zthrowaway 5y ago
- naoqj 5y agoI think it’s normal to ask questions: if nothing has ever happened to the US for similar abuses, why should something happen to any other countries?
- mlindner 5y agoI do wonder who pays to have all these comments put on hacker news. This happens a lot on Russia-related threads as well. Or is it just some nationality who learned incorrect history. On the Russia-related threads I would've put it to people from India as there's a big tech group there and they speak English and their country is cozy with Russia, but they wouldn't be defending China.
- propagandist 5y agoMay I ask who paid for your comment? Why do you automatically assume that there's an organized campaign when the viewpoint disagrees with your own? [Removed. Thank you commented below for the reminder to keep my background out of it] I have watched the democracy, WMD, and human rights theatrics deployed before. There are always people saying "let's be a little skeptical" and they are always called treasonous and unpatriotic. Yet we find and time again that there is wisdom in heeding their warnings. So please keep in mind that some of us are under the proverbial boot and so we have a good reason to remember how this play goes.
- treebot 5y agoHacker news is just not that pro west. I actually find it quite refreshing.
- sofixa 5y agoSince when does it take a pro-Western stance to condemn a war, terrible atrocities and genocides? What, non-Westerners lack a moral compass or compassion?
- erdos4d 5y ago[flagged]
- Bancakes 5y agoWhat's the alternative? Someone commits a felony, and then you...?
- lui8906 5y ago> What's the alternative? Someone commits a felony, and then you...? The US is the OECD country with the highest per capita % of incarcerated individuals. By orders of magnitude. So it seems other countries have found other approaches? > Source: Half of the OECD countries have less than 100 people in prison per 100 000 inhabitants. Thirteen have between 100 and 200. Two countries exceed this – Poland with 230 and the United States with more than 700. The US rate is the highest in the world followed by Russia with about 600 per 100 000 inhabitants. Except in the United States imprisonment rates for women are negligible. https://www.oecd.org/sdd/37964686.pdf https://www.oecd.org/sdd/37964686.pdf
- nukemaster 5y agoWhatever California and NYC tried absolutely didn't work so you can't just say "something else."
- lui8906 5y agoWho wrote something else? Not sure if you're referring to another comment or I'm being strawmanned? :)
- Bancakes 5y agoThey haven't. USA simply has rampant crime unheard of in the EU short of the jungles refugee centres are (non-ukrainian).
- aranazo 5y agoRussia's incarceration rate seems to have fallen dramatically in the last decade, 356 per 100 000 in 2020. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1022927/russia-annual-incarceration-rate/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1022927/russia-annual-in...
- fqye 5y ago[dead]
- DigitalSea 5y ago
- VictorPath 5y ago
- golergka 5y agoHave there been at least one verified report about american comment far, BTW? There's been dozens about Russian and Chinese over the last 15 years.
- grapeskin 5y agoThere has, yes. Straight from the Senate. [1] There's a 300 million dollar budget to counter "chinese influence" and "promote transparency." Where does that money go? Who knows. But traditionally this goes to paying for media narratives, and in the 21st century, online comments are definitely a good bang for your buck. And star witnesses are also a good way to counter the influence of a country and demand transparency. They've done it before. [2] I don't think we'll know the reality of this until 20 years down the road. [1] https://www.appropriations.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FY21%20BILL%20HIGHLIGHTS_SFOPS_final.pdf https://www.appropriations.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FY21%20B... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
- golergka 5y agoThis money can go to a lot of different activities, and I don't see any reason to believe that it's actually about comment farms and not "white-hat" PR.
- cute_boi 5y agoAnd the difference between CCP bot and CIA bot can easily be recognized. CCP bots generally don't sway and entice people using words. CIA bots are very good in making specious arguments. They understand how they can imbue people with rage.
- NmAmDa 5y agoIt is clear that many people (sometimes with good intentions) would bring this logic to any discussion about this matter. . China is having their Muslim population put into camps and they live in a horrible injustice situation. They are targeted because of their religion /ethnicity. Chinese government saying that US is being hypocrite because they did so and so in Iraq and whatever happened after 9/11 from abuses..etc would be good. If only they did that in general while not trying to say okay don't talk about us doing it because we think you did the same. That would be great if you stand up against oppression in general not just when you can benefit. It would be great if we can just talk about people suffering and try to help them in every possible way.
- okl 5y ago> Chinese government saying that US is being hypocrite because they did so and so in Iraq and whatever happened after 9/11 from abuses. That is an argument against abuse, not in favor. What are their arguments to support their actions?
- NmAmDa 5y agoChinese government (propaganda) is usually deploying this logic to suppress the discussion about their actions. It is a wide spread tactic that we see everyday. It is not like china is ever interested in helping people in Iraq, Afghanistan.. they could just stop doing the same (if not worse) as a good well gesture.
- duairc 5y agoChina is actually interested in helping people in Afghanistan. They sent aid[1] during the winter crisis and they have called for the return of the assets of the Afghan people that have been stolen by the United States[2]. [1] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3160159/china-sends-aid-afghanistan-taliban-grapples-winter-crisis https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3160159/ch... [2] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-02-17/China-calls-for-return-of-Afghanistan-s-overseas-assets-in-full-17J3udJ0D4Y/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-02-17/China-calls-for-return...
- bigbillheck 5y agoI got fooled by Nayirah al-Sabah, and later by Colin Powell. I've learned from history, and I don't care to repeat it.
- kryptiskt 5y agoFor all the faults of the western world, we will have to serve as the preserver of the record of all these abuses in countries that don't allow anything but the official version to spread. It should be noted that without the international news of the Uyghur repression there wouldn't even be an official version from the Chinese government, they were silent about it until it became big. We can't do a lot for the Uyghur people, but at least let's not get fooled into doing Xi's work for him.
- VictorPath 5y ago[flagged]
- kryptiskt 5y agoYou read or heard about those things from reports originating in western media (yes, you might have read it somewhere else, but even the People's Daily is reliant on western media for the stories it makes about how the west is bad). The free dissemination of information sets us apart from the likes of China and Russia. We shouldn't self-censor news from China because Biden is an asshole, we can report about both. If the situation really was symmetrical, there wouldn't be any discussion about US abuses, because it would be outlawed.
- duairc 5y ago[flagged]
- trasz 5y agoI think one crucial thing people forget about Xinjiang is the context: namely, why those camps are there. They are a way of fighting terrorism - an alternative to how the West is handling this problem, which is killing those people from safe distance. US is propping up Xinjiang subject, because if China is successful - if they can show those people can be brought back into society - then it proves again how wrong the American invasion on Middle East was.
- incomingpain 5y agoThe thing that confuses me is that China's muslim neighbours(ish) like Saudis, Pakistan or Kazakhstan support China in what they are doing. There is greater incentive for those 3 countries to care what China is doing to fellow Muslims and they don't oppose it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
- seniorivn 5y agowhy would they care? they would do the same thing themselves if they could. Dictators dig dictators, it's that simple
- sudosysgen 5y agoOf course they support it. From their point of view, China is showing them how to deal with domestic separatist religious movements. All they need is for the Chinese to point to the Hui Muslims and they will be more than fine with it - they may even have endorse it.
- dirtyid 5y ago> don't oppose it. Formally they actively support it - they endorse PRC "deradicalization" policy since they suffer from extremist problems themselves. This isn't complicated, plurality of the world does not buy US/western genocide framing - they see PRC policy as relatively peaceful counter-insurgency and actual nation building effort for restive peoples which these regions have to deal with in spades. It's absolutely in their interest for XJ model to work, and perhaps be adoptable through a neat package like Huawei smart cities. West exports democracy that ultimately destabilize vs PRC exports security for serenity. Of course latter is preferable.
- incomingpain 5y ago>Formally they actively support it - they endorse PRC "deradicalization" policy since they suffer from extremist problems themselves. The USA just spent 20 years in the middle east 'deradicalizing' or at least that's the going claim from both these regimes. The USA doubts China because they know they were oh so wrong about that claim, not that they admit it. 99 terrorists on the wall, drone strike one, 105 terrorists on the wall. >This isn't complicated, plurality of the world does not buy US/western genocide framing - they see PRC policy as relatively peaceful counter-insurgency and actual nation building effort for restive peoples which these regions have to deal with in spades. I wonder how much the US/western biased media is really the one at fault here. >It's absolutely in their interest for XJ model to work, and perhaps be adoptable through a neat package like Huawei smart cities. West exports democracy that ultimately destabilize vs PRC exports security for serenity. Of course latter is preferable. This is interesting to me. I feel like you're saying something different. In a way you're saying democracy is unstable and PRC communist control with security is serenity. This shanghai situation... brink of a peasant's revolt. Some crazy stuff going on there and the government decided to flipflop on an ultralockdown. The original reason for ultralockdown has actually only gotten worse. This is far from serenity in my books.
- aaron695 5y ago[dead]
- lobocinza 5y agoIt spokes a lot when you see that nearly all those defending the CCP are in fact criticizing other countries as CCP tyranny is undeniable and indefensible. But human rights violation isn't a competition, past and existing mistakes don't justify scaling up evil.
- Koiwai 5y agoPolitics, flagged.