5 ms·

Small aside, reading all these conversations: I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large

Small aside, reading all these conversations: I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those. But there is also a huge contingent of people who do regular waged labor here, whether FAANG or freelance. Beyond any political differences, I think this is the main operating tension here, when there is one. The very essence of this website is not amenable to workers coming together to discuss things like the propriety of employment-tied healthcare, or what we should expect from our managers, but mostly for aspiring and current startup leaders to, probably, discuss everything but that stuff. It is a forum attached to a startup incubator after all, and I can't imagine much VC money goes to those companies that are worried about their own labor related issues/externalities, at least those that they don't need to legally be worried about. I don't think anything is lost here, there is no problem per se, discussions are of course not being diminished by this ultimately demographic point; but just... if you come to these threads and feel a little disappointed that there is not a more universal solidarity towards the basic decency of the worker, just remember it is because not everyone here is a worker!

yodsanklai 5y ago
> a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those. I wonder to what extent this is true. I've been on HN several years without even knowing that it has anything to do with start up. A lot of contributors don't even work in tech.
legitster 5y ago
> a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those A good point. And I think the reason this article is so fraught is that the writer is basically arguing even that if you met all of their demands and tried to make the world a better place, they will fundamentally remain hostile to you.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I've been reading HN for years and I would assume 90% of the comment section or more is people who only want to be employees. I hate to say it, but HN isn't a great place for genuine startup, management, or operation advice. At all. Even product discussions are very customer-centric rather than company-centric, and companies will get roasted here for making good business decisions that don't directly benefit the users. For example, years ago the common refrain on HN was "charge more" and encouraged businesses to raise prices, fire problematic customers that weren't contributing value, and otherwise focus on the company's bottom line. Now whenever a company pulls a "charge more" and raises prices, reduces the free plan, or discontinues services for non-paying customers it's nothing but rage and pitchforks in the comment section. HN comments can still be useful, but it's definitely not a friendly place for actual founders and business owners making tough decisions.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Don't you think that change in sentiment is connected to macroeconomic trends that go beyond the world of startups?
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    Yes but not in the way I think you're implying. Labor makes a rational decision to make as much money as they can, and as highly paid software jobs have become more common, more labor has entered software. Rather than the past when most people were in software to try something new or start something, most software labor these days is in it just for a living. The distinction between labor and capital itself in software was a bit arbitrary as many engineers would go off and become founding or otherwise early engineers in other firms. Thus it makes rational sense for capital-disinterested labor to maximize what they get out of a job, much as corporations are criticized/observed to try and extract as much labor as possible out of employees. Hence it's become en vogue for labor in software to loudly criticize companies for any small slight to extract as much value as possible much just as corporations make decisions to maximize shareholder value. Just as companies can treat their workers badly, labor can malign capital unfairly. It's the end result of corporations with disinterested labor. The two sides try to fight a war while extracting as much value as possible. Labor isn't interested in joining capital the way it once did when software was newer and sees them as permanent adversaries. It's also probably why we're seeing increased attempts at software unionization despite software being so well compensated; labor doesn't see itself as being similar to capital.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Static gets injected because tech employees and to a slightly lesser extent engineering types in general like to think they are experts in everything. Say what you want about lawyers, they will say "not my area of expertise immma shut my mouth" at the drop of a hat.
spacechild1 5y ago
> a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I'm pretty sure they are really a minority.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I would guess slightly higher than the general population but still not a huge number.
formerkrogemp 5y ago
I've been aware of that while reading this site for years as "waged regular labor." I don't think the perspective is the same at all. The audience isn't the startup focused audience it once was in 2011, but has broadened quite a bit.

yodsanklai 5y ago

> a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those. I wonder to what extent this is true. I've been on HN several years without even knowing that it has anything to do with start up. A lot of contributors don't even work in tech.

legitster 5y ago

> a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those A good point. And I think the reason this article is so fraught is that the writer is basically arguing even that if you met all of their demands and tried to make the world a better place, they will fundamentally remain hostile to you.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I've been reading HN for years and I would assume 90% of the comment section or more is people who only want to be employees. I hate to say it, but HN isn't a great place for genuine startup, management, or operation advice. At all. Even product discussions are very customer-centric rather than company-centric, and companies will get roasted here for making good business decisions that don't directly benefit the users. For example, years ago the common refrain on HN was "charge more" and encouraged businesses to raise prices, fire problematic customers that weren't contributing value, and otherwise focus on the company's bottom line. Now whenever a company pulls a "charge more" and raises prices, reduces the free plan, or discontinues services for non-paying customers it's nothing but rage and pitchforks in the comment section. HN comments can still be useful, but it's definitely not a friendly place for actual founders and business owners making tough decisions.

Apocryphon 5y ago
Don't you think that change in sentiment is connected to macroeconomic trends that go beyond the world of startups?
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  Yes but not in the way I think you're implying. Labor makes a rational decision to make as much money as they can, and as highly paid software jobs have become more common, more labor has entered software. Rather than the past when most people were in software to try something new or start something, most software labor these days is in it just for a living. The distinction between labor and capital itself in software was a bit arbitrary as many engineers would go off and become founding or otherwise early engineers in other firms. Thus it makes rational sense for capital-disinterested labor to maximize what they get out of a job, much as corporations are criticized/observed to try and extract as much labor as possible out of employees. Hence it's become en vogue for labor in software to loudly criticize companies for any small slight to extract as much value as possible much just as corporations make decisions to maximize shareholder value. Just as companies can treat their workers badly, labor can malign capital unfairly. It's the end result of corporations with disinterested labor. The two sides try to fight a war while extracting as much value as possible. Labor isn't interested in joining capital the way it once did when software was newer and sees them as permanent adversaries. It's also probably why we're seeing increased attempts at software unionization despite software being so well compensated; labor doesn't see itself as being similar to capital.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

Static gets injected because tech employees and to a slightly lesser extent engineering types in general like to think they are experts in everything. Say what you want about lawyers, they will say "not my area of expertise immma shut my mouth" at the drop of a hat.

spacechild1 5y ago

> a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I'm pretty sure they are really a minority.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
I would guess slightly higher than the general population but still not a huge number.

formerkrogemp 5y ago

I've been aware of that while reading this site for years as "waged regular labor." I don't think the perspective is the same at all. The audience isn't the startup focused audience it once was in 2011, but has broadened quite a bit.