17 ms·

Locutus: A platform for building decentralized apps, from the creator of Freenet

146 points by sanity 5y ago

waynecochran 5y ago
I really would love to see decentralized apps, but I don't see how to get around the "back end storage" problem. If you have a ton of data (e.g., video) how and where does this get stored in a decentralized system? It seems impossible to compete with the fast and reliable infrastructure of the big folks (e.g. Amazon, Google, MS, ...).
- sanity31415 5y ago
  Locutus is more like a cache than long-term storage, so data can fall out of the network if nobody is requesting it, but information publishers can serve as a backup for data stored in the network, replacing it if it falls out. I think making the publisher responsible for long-term retention and the decentralized network responsible for distribution is the best option here. Other tools like FileCoin take the alternate approach of trying to do long-term storage in a decentralized way.
- wmf 5y ago
  A bunch of projects are working on storage: Filecoin, Sia, Storj, etc.
  - trappist 5y ago
    Not just working on it. We use Storj in production and it's dramatically cheaper than S3.
- rklaehn 5y ago
  There are plenty of options for long term storage of large assets in a decentralised way. Also, decentralised does not have to mean that you don't use traditional cloud providers. What is missing is a really polished way to do decentralized apps, so that you don't have to think about the decentralized aspect all the time, but just use it because it is the best option. But it is coming. Full disclosure: hacking on something to make writing decentralized apps easier: https://github.com/cloudpeers/tlfs https://github.com/cloudpeers/tlfs
  - indigochill 5y ago
    > so that you don't have to think about the decentralized aspect all the time Depending how strict you want to be about this, torrents and Secure Scuttlebutt are pretty good in this respect. I especially love Secure Scuttlebutt because it simply makes the client the store of which messages it's seen which also means there is no authoritative view of the whole network but that's by design. But probably the even better example here is email. It's the OG federated protocol and nobody thinks of it that way. Probably because casual users have consolidated around a handful of convenient clients (gmail, hotmail, whatever) and not thought too hard about how emails get exchanged from one corporate mail server to another.
    - rklaehn 5y ago
      Yes, there is a lot of awesome stuff that just works. SSB, the entire DAT/hypercore community, tools like syncthing that just do one thing well. I like the SSB approach of just embracing subjectivity. I was quite amazed when discovering all this at dtn.is (Before I only knew the IPFS community). But I feel there is still something missing for very wide spread adoption. What we are trying to do with TLFS is to combine - a CRDT with strict schema ( Adapted from https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01529 https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01529 ) - a built in way to do schema evolution ( Adapted from https://www.inkandswitch.com/cambria/ https://www.inkandswitch.com/cambria/ ) - local first / p2p deployment and operation even for native apps, based on https://github.com/libp2p/rust-libp2p https://github.com/libp2p/rust-libp2p , faciliated by https://github.com/cloudpeers/x https://github.com/cloudpeers/x We're not nearly there yet, but ideally it should be so easy to write small collaborative apps that it is a good option even if you don't care about the idealistic motivations for decentralized apps.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  I've been quite surprised by the reliability of Popcorn Time (relatively bad, but torrents have not been designed with this in mind, have they?), and especially PeerTube (how is that even possible ?!).
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    Isn't decentralized sharing with resiliency exactly what torrents we're created for?
    - BlueTemplar 5y ago
      I mean for video streaming. (Unlike, say, eMule, which had "get first packets first" option implemented out of the box ?)
- Ambolia 5y ago
  This is a problem, but this is a problem with centralized websites too. How many links to broken blogs, broken youtube videos or to broken tweets have you ever encountered? Heck, most people don't even link to tweets anymore, they just post screenshots. The current internet is terrible at archiving information.
- cryptome12345 4y ago
  Why not starting paying them for their services on a decentralized network like BTC pays for computer power? I can see a decentralized design for paid hosting like that.
sanity31415 5y ago
I'm the creator of Locutus - happy to answer any questions.
- rklaehn 5y ago
  It is really hard to see how this is intended to work from the README. Where is a good example of the programming model? This one? https://github.com/freenet/locutus/blob/main/contracts/test_contract/src/lib.rs https://github.com/freenet/locutus/blob/main/contracts/test_... Since this is written in rust: is there also a version of freenet in rust in the works?
  - sanity31415 5y ago
    We're definitely still working on how we explain it. That is an example of the contract API - you can find a better explanation of it here: https://github.com/freenet/locutus/issues/9 https://github.com/freenet/locutus/issues/9 We're not re-implementing Freenet in Rust, this is a separate project with related but different goals - however it does borrow a number of ideas from Freenet (like using a small-world network as a DHT).
- texaslonghorn5 5y ago
  Given that Locutus was meant to be a centralized human intermediary for the Borg, is the name of the platform intended to be ironic? If so, I like it!
  - sanity31415 5y ago
    :) "Locutus" also means "speaker" in Latin. Not sure we're going to stick with the name "Locutus" when we launch, so for now it's just a working title for the project.
- the_arun 5y ago
  Define - Decentralized. Does it mean my data can stay in anyone’s computer safely? does it use p2p or such for communication? What are the sizing limitations? Where can read more?
logifail 5y ago
> Decentralized email [can be built on Locutus] I don't understand this particular one. I've hosted my own email for the last 20+ years, every single component of the stack is open-source, all you need is your favourite Linux distro, a bit of patience and a [virtual] server with a static IP. Isn't email decentralized the moment you stop using Gmail or Office365 - or, $deity forbid, your ISP's webmail...?
- sanity31415 5y ago
  In theory[1] you can run a mail server on your home computer, but even then you must depend on the centralized domain name system to host your MX record, so I would say it's more "federated" than decentralized. [1] In practice, spam mitigation measures will make it very difficult to get other mail servers to trust your home IP address.
  - mountainriver 5y ago
    Yeah but the whole promise of putting dns on the blockchain hasn’t really ones out either
    - sanity31415 5y ago
      The blockchain is a terrible place to put a system like DNS.
      - hanniabu 5y ago
        Why is that?
        tirpen 5y ago
        The blockchain is a terrible place to put anything that contains arbitrary human readable text, like URLs in this case. The append only aspect of blockchains means that if someone posts URLs that contains information that is legally required to be removable in some circumstances, the entire blockchain could become illegal to reproduce in some jurisdictions. For instance, if someone registers www.emanuel-macrons-personal-phoneno-is-888-8888888.xyz that could be a GDPR violation and thus that URL would need to be removable by EU regulations. And it's just not GDPR, that's just the most obvious example.
endisneigh 5y ago
> 6. Chat with us We're in #locutus on Discord. > 7. Stay up to date Follow FreenetOrg on Twitter. lol
- sanity31415 5y ago
  We'll happily use Locutus for those things once it's ready ;)
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    Not using IRC/Matrix though is a weird choice, libera.chat is a pretty "standard" choice for decentralized open source projects.
    - sanity31415 5y ago
      We're not married to Discord, we just picked it because it was the most convenient option for the early dev team. We can change easily.
      - kirimita 5y ago
        It is also possible to bridge your discord room to a matrix room : https://www.t2host.io/discord/ https://www.t2host.io/discord/
        sanity31415 5y ago
        Good idea, I'll check it out.
- romseb 5y ago
  I think it's legitimate to first use well-known platforms where people are already registered, especially in such an early development phase. This has not much to do with dogfooding.
  - 5y ago
devmunchies 5y ago
> each key is a cryptographic contract implemented in Web Assembly Hope more language start targeting WASI so the entire industry can get behind a single runtime. For those unfamiliar, this would replace things like containers and allow more portability. It’s the dream of “write once, run anywhere” accept is language agnostic. I’d imagine there would be a k8s-like infra tool for managing instances of WASM processes.
- dezzeus 5y ago
  I don’t want to be harsh, but to me it sounds pretty much like the value proposition of the JRE (Java Runtime Environment) et similia…
  - devmunchies 5y ago
    yeah, which is why I have “write once, run anywhere” in quotes. The difference being that this is language agnostic and run by standards bodies. its just a compilation target. We already are trying to do write once, run anywhere with containerization, except that containers use lots of memory and space because you need to virtualize an entire OS. Whereas WASM is just the bytecode for my program, and I can give that to a WASM interpreter or a compiler to compile to machine code.
EGreg 5y ago
Nice! That’s what we’re building at Intercoin and we are calling it Intercloud

146 points by sanity 5y ago

I really would love to see decentralized apps, but I don't see how to get around the "back end storage" problem. If you have a ton of data (e.g., video) how and where does this get stored in a decentralized system? It seems impossible to compete with the fast and reliable infrastructure of the big folks (e.g. Amazon, Google, MS, ...).

sanity31415 5y ago
Locutus is more like a cache than long-term storage, so data can fall out of the network if nobody is requesting it, but information publishers can serve as a backup for data stored in the network, replacing it if it falls out. I think making the publisher responsible for long-term retention and the decentralized network responsible for distribution is the best option here. Other tools like FileCoin take the alternate approach of trying to do long-term storage in a decentralized way.
wmf 5y ago
A bunch of projects are working on storage: Filecoin, Sia, Storj, etc.
- trappist 5y ago
  Not just working on it. We use Storj in production and it's dramatically cheaper than S3.
rklaehn 5y ago
There are plenty of options for long term storage of large assets in a decentralised way. Also, decentralised does not have to mean that you don't use traditional cloud providers. What is missing is a really polished way to do decentralized apps, so that you don't have to think about the decentralized aspect all the time, but just use it because it is the best option. But it is coming. Full disclosure: hacking on something to make writing decentralized apps easier: https://github.com/cloudpeers/tlfs https://github.com/cloudpeers/tlfs
- indigochill 5y ago
  > so that you don't have to think about the decentralized aspect all the time Depending how strict you want to be about this, torrents and Secure Scuttlebutt are pretty good in this respect. I especially love Secure Scuttlebutt because it simply makes the client the store of which messages it's seen which also means there is no authoritative view of the whole network but that's by design. But probably the even better example here is email. It's the OG federated protocol and nobody thinks of it that way. Probably because casual users have consolidated around a handful of convenient clients (gmail, hotmail, whatever) and not thought too hard about how emails get exchanged from one corporate mail server to another.
  - rklaehn 5y ago
    Yes, there is a lot of awesome stuff that just works. SSB, the entire DAT/hypercore community, tools like syncthing that just do one thing well. I like the SSB approach of just embracing subjectivity. I was quite amazed when discovering all this at dtn.is (Before I only knew the IPFS community). But I feel there is still something missing for very wide spread adoption. What we are trying to do with TLFS is to combine - a CRDT with strict schema ( Adapted from https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01529 https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01529 ) - a built in way to do schema evolution ( Adapted from https://www.inkandswitch.com/cambria/ https://www.inkandswitch.com/cambria/ ) - local first / p2p deployment and operation even for native apps, based on https://github.com/libp2p/rust-libp2p https://github.com/libp2p/rust-libp2p , faciliated by https://github.com/cloudpeers/x https://github.com/cloudpeers/x We're not nearly there yet, but ideally it should be so easy to write small collaborative apps that it is a good option even if you don't care about the idealistic motivations for decentralized apps.
BlueTemplar 5y ago
I've been quite surprised by the reliability of Popcorn Time (relatively bad, but torrents have not been designed with this in mind, have they?), and especially PeerTube (how is that even possible ?!).
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Isn't decentralized sharing with resiliency exactly what torrents we're created for?
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    I mean for video streaming. (Unlike, say, eMule, which had "get first packets first" option implemented out of the box ?)
Ambolia 5y ago
This is a problem, but this is a problem with centralized websites too. How many links to broken blogs, broken youtube videos or to broken tweets have you ever encountered? Heck, most people don't even link to tweets anymore, they just post screenshots. The current internet is terrible at archiving information.
cryptome12345 4y ago
Why not starting paying them for their services on a decentralized network like BTC pays for computer power? I can see a decentralized design for paid hosting like that.

sanity31415 5y ago

I'm the creator of Locutus - happy to answer any questions.

rklaehn 5y ago
It is really hard to see how this is intended to work from the README. Where is a good example of the programming model? This one? https://github.com/freenet/locutus/blob/main/contracts/test_contract/src/lib.rs https://github.com/freenet/locutus/blob/main/contracts/test_... Since this is written in rust: is there also a version of freenet in rust in the works?
- sanity31415 5y ago
  We're definitely still working on how we explain it. That is an example of the contract API - you can find a better explanation of it here: https://github.com/freenet/locutus/issues/9 https://github.com/freenet/locutus/issues/9 We're not re-implementing Freenet in Rust, this is a separate project with related but different goals - however it does borrow a number of ideas from Freenet (like using a small-world network as a DHT).
texaslonghorn5 5y ago
Given that Locutus was meant to be a centralized human intermediary for the Borg, is the name of the platform intended to be ironic? If so, I like it!
- sanity31415 5y ago
  :) "Locutus" also means "speaker" in Latin. Not sure we're going to stick with the name "Locutus" when we launch, so for now it's just a working title for the project.
the_arun 5y ago
Define - Decentralized. Does it mean my data can stay in anyone’s computer safely? does it use p2p or such for communication? What are the sizing limitations? Where can read more?

logifail 5y ago

> Decentralized email [can be built on Locutus] I don't understand this particular one. I've hosted my own email for the last 20+ years, every single component of the stack is open-source, all you need is your favourite Linux distro, a bit of patience and a [virtual] server with a static IP. Isn't email decentralized the moment you stop using Gmail or Office365 - or, $deity forbid, your ISP's webmail...?

sanity31415 5y ago
In theory[1] you can run a mail server on your home computer, but even then you must depend on the centralized domain name system to host your MX record, so I would say it's more "federated" than decentralized. [1] In practice, spam mitigation measures will make it very difficult to get other mail servers to trust your home IP address.
- mountainriver 5y ago
  Yeah but the whole promise of putting dns on the blockchain hasn’t really ones out either
  - sanity31415 5y ago
    The blockchain is a terrible place to put a system like DNS.
    - hanniabu 5y ago
      Why is that?
      - tirpen 5y ago
        The blockchain is a terrible place to put anything that contains arbitrary human readable text, like URLs in this case. The append only aspect of blockchains means that if someone posts URLs that contains information that is legally required to be removable in some circumstances, the entire blockchain could become illegal to reproduce in some jurisdictions. For instance, if someone registers www.emanuel-macrons-personal-phoneno-is-888-8888888.xyz that could be a GDPR violation and thus that URL would need to be removable by EU regulations. And it's just not GDPR, that's just the most obvious example.

endisneigh 5y ago

> 6. Chat with us We're in #locutus on Discord. > 7. Stay up to date Follow FreenetOrg on Twitter. lol

sanity31415 5y ago
We'll happily use Locutus for those things once it's ready ;)
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  Not using IRC/Matrix though is a weird choice, libera.chat is a pretty "standard" choice for decentralized open source projects.
  - sanity31415 5y ago
    We're not married to Discord, we just picked it because it was the most convenient option for the early dev team. We can change easily.
    - kirimita 5y ago
      It is also possible to bridge your discord room to a matrix room : https://www.t2host.io/discord/ https://www.t2host.io/discord/
      - sanity31415 5y ago
        Good idea, I'll check it out.
romseb 5y ago
I think it's legitimate to first use well-known platforms where people are already registered, especially in such an early development phase. This has not much to do with dogfooding.
- 5y ago

devmunchies 5y ago

> each key is a cryptographic contract implemented in Web Assembly Hope more language start targeting WASI so the entire industry can get behind a single runtime. For those unfamiliar, this would replace things like containers and allow more portability. It’s the dream of “write once, run anywhere” accept is language agnostic. I’d imagine there would be a k8s-like infra tool for managing instances of WASM processes.

dezzeus 5y ago
I don’t want to be harsh, but to me it sounds pretty much like the value proposition of the JRE (Java Runtime Environment) et similia…
- devmunchies 5y ago
  yeah, which is why I have “write once, run anywhere” in quotes. The difference being that this is language agnostic and run by standards bodies. its just a compilation target. We already are trying to do write once, run anywhere with containerization, except that containers use lots of memory and space because you need to virtualize an entire OS. Whereas WASM is just the bytecode for my program, and I can give that to a WASM interpreter or a compiler to compile to machine code.

EGreg 5y ago

Nice! That’s what we’re building at Intercoin and we are calling it Intercloud