6 ms·

Yes, it does. You don't get to decide for other people who or what they are.

by mcronce 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pjbeam 4y ago
But other people get to demand positive affirmation? This doesn't sit right.
- throwmeariver1 4y ago
  Everyone demands positive affirmation... that's a nothing burger comment mate.
  - pjbeam 4y ago
    Big difference between "yes I'll call you Sarah" and "trans women are women".
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Elaborate?
- ruined 4y ago
  you wouldn't consider it "positive affirmation" of most people to simply accept the name and gender they provide, it is simply the bare minimum for normal interaction. why do you consider it beyond reasonable accommodation for some people? do you think you know some deeper truth about these other people than they know about themselves? why do you think you can reliably identify that case? couldn't you simply leave them alone, and not make a big deal out of it? if you think it doesn't matter, prove it. refuse to recognize anyone's identity. start misgendering and misnaming people you wouldn't do that to before. see how far that gets you.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    > do you think you know some deeper truth about these other people than they know about themselves? why do you think you can reliably identify that case? I think the debate is less about what someone's inner life is like, and more about whether gender words (like man, woman etc) refer to inner feelings or to someone's physical sex. Historically they have been used to refer to both, and many people. use their own gender label to refer to their physical sex rather than any inner feelings.
eadmund 4y ago
> You don't get to decide for other people who or what they are. Yeah, but neither do they. There is such a thing as objective truth. I have no right to be treated as four-legged, because I do not have four legs. Neither can I claim a right to be treated as the Queen of Englang, because I am not the queen of England. Nor do I have a right to be treated as a member of the opposite sex because I am not in fact a member of the opposite sex.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I agree with this, but I do think that there is a genuine debate to had about: 1. Whether people of different sexes ever ought to be treated differently (and if so, in which circumstances). 2. Whether people of different gender identities ever ought to be treated differently (and if so, in which circumstances). My own view is that in the vast majority of cases we shouldn't be treating people differently on the basis of either sex or gender identity, and that identity-based gender and sex-based gender are about as bad as each other!
- Aeolun 4y ago
  > because I am not in fact a member of the opposite sex Does this change when it legally changes? Or does the gender you were born with forever stay the same?
5560675260 4y ago
But I do decide how I view people and what kind of identities I construct for them in my mind.
- mcronce 4y ago
  You have every right to think whatever you want. You, again, don't get to decide for them who/what they are.
samatman 4y ago
In many normal circumstances, I am entitled to disagree with people about who or what they are. Someone might think they're charming, and I might find them a great bore. It's obvious in this example that equivocating that with deciding for that person, anything at all, is asinine. Most social settings, and all professional ones, require that I be more polite to this "charming" person than I would otherwise be inclined to, given my own feelings on that subject. There is something to be learned here.

Yes, it does. You don't get to decide for other people who or what they are.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pjbeam 4y ago

But other people get to demand positive affirmation? This doesn't sit right.

throwmeariver1 4y ago
Everyone demands positive affirmation... that's a nothing burger comment mate.
- pjbeam 4y ago
  Big difference between "yes I'll call you Sarah" and "trans women are women".
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Elaborate?
ruined 4y ago
you wouldn't consider it "positive affirmation" of most people to simply accept the name and gender they provide, it is simply the bare minimum for normal interaction. why do you consider it beyond reasonable accommodation for some people? do you think you know some deeper truth about these other people than they know about themselves? why do you think you can reliably identify that case? couldn't you simply leave them alone, and not make a big deal out of it? if you think it doesn't matter, prove it. refuse to recognize anyone's identity. start misgendering and misnaming people you wouldn't do that to before. see how far that gets you.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > do you think you know some deeper truth about these other people than they know about themselves? why do you think you can reliably identify that case? I think the debate is less about what someone's inner life is like, and more about whether gender words (like man, woman etc) refer to inner feelings or to someone's physical sex. Historically they have been used to refer to both, and many people. use their own gender label to refer to their physical sex rather than any inner feelings.

eadmund 4y ago

> You don't get to decide for other people who or what they are. Yeah, but neither do they. There is such a thing as objective truth. I have no right to be treated as four-legged, because I do not have four legs. Neither can I claim a right to be treated as the Queen of Englang, because I am not the queen of England. Nor do I have a right to be treated as a member of the opposite sex because I am not in fact a member of the opposite sex.

nicoburns 4y ago
I agree with this, but I do think that there is a genuine debate to had about: 1. Whether people of different sexes ever ought to be treated differently (and if so, in which circumstances). 2. Whether people of different gender identities ever ought to be treated differently (and if so, in which circumstances). My own view is that in the vast majority of cases we shouldn't be treating people differently on the basis of either sex or gender identity, and that identity-based gender and sex-based gender are about as bad as each other!
Aeolun 4y ago
> because I am not in fact a member of the opposite sex Does this change when it legally changes? Or does the gender you were born with forever stay the same?

5560675260 4y ago

But I do decide how I view people and what kind of identities I construct for them in my mind.

mcronce 4y ago
You have every right to think whatever you want. You, again, don't get to decide for them who/what they are.

samatman 4y ago

In many normal circumstances, I am entitled to disagree with people about who or what they are. Someone might think they're charming, and I might find them a great bore. It's obvious in this example that equivocating that with deciding for that person, anything at all, is asinine. Most social settings, and all professional ones, require that I be more polite to this "charming" person than I would otherwise be inclined to, given my own feelings on that subject. There is something to be learned here.