4 ms·

well, luckily most languages are modernizing to accommodate marginalized people! Historical patterns are no excuse to deliberately misgender or genderify langua

well, luckily most languages are modernizing to accommodate marginalized people! Historical patterns are no excuse to deliberately misgender or genderify language. E.g. for Spanish a lot of people use an X or @ instead of -o -a, same in German. In Scandinavia hön as a pronoun. In mean eyes what is most important: grammatical correctness or kindness?

janto 4y ago
Truthful description of relevant info is most important. The constructed profile of the person I'm talking to online is uninteresting to me. You might actually be a dog for all I know. If you want me to play along so you're never confronted with being identified as a dog... then I'm not sure I'm really doing you a favor. Maybe the kindest thing is not to play along with your language game.
- languageserver 4y ago
  > Maybe the kindest thing is not to play along with your language game. My comment was in response to someone indicating that certain European languages forced you to know the gender of the person you were speaking to. So, the "language game" is already ongoing. This is why people have constructed careful expansions to the grammar, to make language non-genderized. What is the alternative? To assume everyone identifies as a male?
  - fruitsnacksbaby 4y ago
    Yes.
  - janto 4y ago
    To understand that terms like mankind already refer to all humanity is a small part of it. Another part is that communication serves us in finding suitable mates and manipulation of language towards social goals is likely to have outcomes that are eventually counter to what is meaningful to us as individuals. I'd also disagree that expanding a language carefully is what is being done here. It is unlikely towards the goal of expressing ourselves more clearly.
    - languageserver 4y ago
      This is exactly why people are aiming to change this forced behavior. Language reflects society and the only reason why male terms are considered "general" by some parts of the population is because men for centuries repressed the female populations and the non-binary. this is unfortunately one of those times where "I have no opinion" is an opinion
      - janto 4y ago
        You clearly have an opinion. Are you saying I should not? I don't follow. Forcing a change in language towards social agreeableness while using a lens of "there is only power" will have bad consequences.
        languageserver 4y ago
        What I am saying is that taking a stance of assuming people identifying as male is an opinion - which is quickly become a minority stance for good reasons. Misgendering is a huge trigger for a lot of people, and considered a "micro agression" if you are familiar with that term. This is why most people go out of their way, just like if an ethnicity says that a certain word is a slur (i.e. c-word for Asians, or even worse for Black or African Americans) then people stop using that term. Just like a racial minority, we must in my opinion - and most other people in the US - sit down a listen to their concerns. A male dominated society has for centuries built stigma and downplayed the significance of females and non-binary folks, such that it has even spread into the language itself.
        janto 4y ago
        Why does language matter to you? Is it a tool to entrenching your identity and present the world as a battleground between your groups? Or does language serve you as an individual to have dialog and develop? If you choose resentment then don't pull others along with you. What meaning does language have?
leephillips 4y ago
“a lot of people” who don’t live in Spanish-speaking countries. Grammatical incorrectness is unkind to anyone who has to listen to you.
- languageserver 4y ago
  In the USA, one of the world's most populous spanish-speaking countries, Spanish communication is often conducted using -x ending, even by the president.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    The US is actually #2, behind Mexico (closely tied with Spain). > Spanish communication is often conducted using -x ending That’s true if by “Spanish communication” you mean NPR reporters sprinkling a couple of “Latinx”s into their English-language articles. > even by the president This does not make the case you might be hoping it makes.
    - languageserver 4y ago
      I wrote the following reply to the person adjacent to your comment, and I will paste it hear as I feel your comment had the same spirit: Some languages have unfortunate misogynistic and transphobic/monogendered built-ins. This is problematic for a large minority of the LGBTQ+ population and many Native/Indigenous/First nations with different linguistic cultures. The USA is one of, if not the, most diverse country in the world with people from all over. It is to me beautiful that the country can embrace both the latinx/hispanic population and at the same time say to these marginalized groups "we hear you, we listen to you, and we understand you." To me the fact that the WH and President Biden use these important ungenderizations is a very important step, just like the federal desegregation of schools. It demonstrates how far we have come in just two generations. I have though met many latinx people who prefer latin@ instead, while others say that it reduces the language for non-binary folks.
      - leephillips 4y ago
matkoniecz 4y ago
In Polish language it is flatly impossible, male/female/neuter is strongly built into grammar. It would require remaking significant part of language, it is not a minor tweak like singular they in English. Demanding this is a runaway imperialism.

janto 4y ago

Truthful description of relevant info is most important. The constructed profile of the person I'm talking to online is uninteresting to me. You might actually be a dog for all I know. If you want me to play along so you're never confronted with being identified as a dog... then I'm not sure I'm really doing you a favor. Maybe the kindest thing is not to play along with your language game.

languageserver 4y ago
> Maybe the kindest thing is not to play along with your language game. My comment was in response to someone indicating that certain European languages forced you to know the gender of the person you were speaking to. So, the "language game" is already ongoing. This is why people have constructed careful expansions to the grammar, to make language non-genderized. What is the alternative? To assume everyone identifies as a male?
- fruitsnacksbaby 4y ago
  Yes.
- janto 4y ago
  To understand that terms like mankind already refer to all humanity is a small part of it. Another part is that communication serves us in finding suitable mates and manipulation of language towards social goals is likely to have outcomes that are eventually counter to what is meaningful to us as individuals. I'd also disagree that expanding a language carefully is what is being done here. It is unlikely towards the goal of expressing ourselves more clearly.
  - languageserver 4y ago
    This is exactly why people are aiming to change this forced behavior. Language reflects society and the only reason why male terms are considered "general" by some parts of the population is because men for centuries repressed the female populations and the non-binary. this is unfortunately one of those times where "I have no opinion" is an opinion
    - janto 4y ago
      You clearly have an opinion. Are you saying I should not? I don't follow. Forcing a change in language towards social agreeableness while using a lens of "there is only power" will have bad consequences.
      - languageserver 4y ago
        What I am saying is that taking a stance of assuming people identifying as male is an opinion - which is quickly become a minority stance for good reasons. Misgendering is a huge trigger for a lot of people, and considered a "micro agression" if you are familiar with that term. This is why most people go out of their way, just like if an ethnicity says that a certain word is a slur (i.e. c-word for Asians, or even worse for Black or African Americans) then people stop using that term. Just like a racial minority, we must in my opinion - and most other people in the US - sit down a listen to their concerns. A male dominated society has for centuries built stigma and downplayed the significance of females and non-binary folks, such that it has even spread into the language itself.
        janto 4y ago
        Why does language matter to you? Is it a tool to entrenching your identity and present the world as a battleground between your groups? Or does language serve you as an individual to have dialog and develop? If you choose resentment then don't pull others along with you. What meaning does language have?

leephillips 4y ago

“a lot of people” who don’t live in Spanish-speaking countries. Grammatical incorrectness is unkind to anyone who has to listen to you.

languageserver 4y ago
In the USA, one of the world's most populous spanish-speaking countries, Spanish communication is often conducted using -x ending, even by the president.
- leephillips 4y ago
  The US is actually #2, behind Mexico (closely tied with Spain). > Spanish communication is often conducted using -x ending That’s true if by “Spanish communication” you mean NPR reporters sprinkling a couple of “Latinx”s into their English-language articles. > even by the president This does not make the case you might be hoping it makes.
  - languageserver 4y ago
    I wrote the following reply to the person adjacent to your comment, and I will paste it hear as I feel your comment had the same spirit: Some languages have unfortunate misogynistic and transphobic/monogendered built-ins. This is problematic for a large minority of the LGBTQ+ population and many Native/Indigenous/First nations with different linguistic cultures. The USA is one of, if not the, most diverse country in the world with people from all over. It is to me beautiful that the country can embrace both the latinx/hispanic population and at the same time say to these marginalized groups "we hear you, we listen to you, and we understand you." To me the fact that the WH and President Biden use these important ungenderizations is a very important step, just like the federal desegregation of schools. It demonstrates how far we have come in just two generations. I have though met many latinx people who prefer latin@ instead, while others say that it reduces the language for non-binary folks.
    - leephillips 4y ago

matkoniecz 4y ago

In Polish language it is flatly impossible, male/female/neuter is strongly built into grammar. It would require remaking significant part of language, it is not a minor tweak like singular they in English. Demanding this is a runaway imperialism.