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The Colombian airline crash: they were speaking English though. NYC ATC is going to be brusque and quick... The new Yorker way. Not many cultures understand tha

by anonu 5y ago

The Colombian airline crash: they were speaking English though. NYC ATC is going to be brusque and quick... The new Yorker way. Not many cultures understand that...

giraffe_lady 5y ago
ATC needs to be effective for all cultures that fly into that airport. If the new york one so deviates from the norm that it can cause crashes that is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed. That said I don't have any reason to think it actually does and you didn't supply one either. Are air traffic controllers even normally from the area where they work? Don't they get assigned?
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Sadly, there was a compounding issue that the pilots didn’t declare an emergency or divert when they were running out of fuel. They thought asking for “priority” was sufficient, when the word has more urgency in their native language than it does in English. :( New York controllers were more abrasive than they were used to and they had trouble speaking up. The controllers also didn’t communicate well amongst themselves and the pilots didn’t know their request for a sooner landing to due low fuel was not passed on. Ultimately, the problem was the pilot’s failure to follow procedures. With the controllers being disorganized either due to lack of procedure or failure to follow it. Either of them could have prevented it. Note: It is not sufficient to blame the pilots and move on. People make mistakes. Both sides need to be improved, because single points of failure kill people.
  - avar 5y ago
    Two airlines pilots failing to use the specific word "emergency" isn't a single point of failure. They then failed to tell passengers to brace before they crashed, which is thought to have contributed to injuries and even deaths.
    - kayodelycaon 5y ago
      Not precisely, no. When it comes to pilot training or airline-wide problems, that becomes the point of failure. The whole point is creating a defense in depth so one factor can’t take down a plane.
- secondcoming 5y ago
  There are JFK ATC conversations on youtube. Even I, an native English speaker but not American, have difficulty understanding them sometimes. They also sometimes come across as being dicks, but obviously only the audience-worthy conversations get uploaded
- cameldrv 5y ago
  In my experience the NY ATC can be brusque in a way that can border on the unprofessional, and they tend to have an accent that can be hard to understand if you're not from there and you're listening on your crappy AM aviation radio. I assume that would go double for a non-native speaker of English. In the rest of the country that I've flown in, the controllers seem to be aiming for the voice of bored Apollo mission controllers.
  - andbberger 5y ago
    how high of a price are we willing to pay for kennedy steve
  - CPLX 5y ago
    I’m a private pilot that’s flown in NYC Class B repeatedly and trained here. I think the reputations are overblown and based mostly on the novelty of the accents and some amusing audio clips that have circulated for years. Given the amazing volume they handle I’ve always found them nothing but crisp and professional. If you’re also basing your opinion on those audio clips rather than actually asking for clearances or navigating the exclusions I think you might also have the wrong impression.
- FL410 5y ago
  It’s not so much that they deviate from the norm (quite the opposite, there’s a manual that dictates exact phraseology), it’s just that there’s SO MUCH traffic that they don’t have time to hold hands, and they expect you to be competent. In other words, there’s very little time or room for error, and that can come off as rudeness. It is always the pilot’s prerogative to overrule ATC (if there’s a legitimate reason) and/or declare an emergency. And I assure you NY ATC would take it seriously if you do. They just don’t have time to dance around.
- pininja 5y ago
  > Are air traffic controllers even normally from the area where they work? Don't they get assigned? They are highly specialized on local facilities, weather, traffic flows, etc. The New York Metro area is one, if not the, most complicated airspace’s to control in the world. 4 major international airports (and tons of smaller airports/heliports) surrounding dense major cities with complicated weather, noise abatement procedures, and high congestion. There are dozens of air traffic controllers of all different seats (supervisors, arrivals, ground, towers, helicopters) in the region. It’s a lot of coordinate. This video gives a nice 3 minute overview: https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=1042 https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=1042
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    > 4 major international airports JFK, LGA, EWR, what’s the fourth one?
    - rospaya 5y ago
      Just found out the other day that LaGuardia is limited in its international flights, just like Reagan National in DC. It doesn't have US customs and border protection facilities.
    - hansthehorse 5y ago
      Teterboro
mattr47 5y ago
All ATC should be brusque and quick, especially in high traffic environments. The US Army's ATC units had the motto of "Safe, Orderly, & Expeditious."

by anonu 5y ago

The Colombian airline crash: they were speaking English though. NYC ATC is going to be brusque and quick... The new Yorker way. Not many cultures understand that...

giraffe_lady 5y ago

ATC needs to be effective for all cultures that fly into that airport. If the new york one so deviates from the norm that it can cause crashes that is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed. That said I don't have any reason to think it actually does and you didn't supply one either. Are air traffic controllers even normally from the area where they work? Don't they get assigned?

kayodelycaon 5y ago
Sadly, there was a compounding issue that the pilots didn’t declare an emergency or divert when they were running out of fuel. They thought asking for “priority” was sufficient, when the word has more urgency in their native language than it does in English. :( New York controllers were more abrasive than they were used to and they had trouble speaking up. The controllers also didn’t communicate well amongst themselves and the pilots didn’t know their request for a sooner landing to due low fuel was not passed on. Ultimately, the problem was the pilot’s failure to follow procedures. With the controllers being disorganized either due to lack of procedure or failure to follow it. Either of them could have prevented it. Note: It is not sufficient to blame the pilots and move on. People make mistakes. Both sides need to be improved, because single points of failure kill people.
- avar 5y ago
  Two airlines pilots failing to use the specific word "emergency" isn't a single point of failure. They then failed to tell passengers to brace before they crashed, which is thought to have contributed to injuries and even deaths.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Not precisely, no. When it comes to pilot training or airline-wide problems, that becomes the point of failure. The whole point is creating a defense in depth so one factor can’t take down a plane.
secondcoming 5y ago
There are JFK ATC conversations on youtube. Even I, an native English speaker but not American, have difficulty understanding them sometimes. They also sometimes come across as being dicks, but obviously only the audience-worthy conversations get uploaded
cameldrv 5y ago
In my experience the NY ATC can be brusque in a way that can border on the unprofessional, and they tend to have an accent that can be hard to understand if you're not from there and you're listening on your crappy AM aviation radio. I assume that would go double for a non-native speaker of English. In the rest of the country that I've flown in, the controllers seem to be aiming for the voice of bored Apollo mission controllers.
- andbberger 5y ago
  how high of a price are we willing to pay for kennedy steve
- CPLX 5y ago
  I’m a private pilot that’s flown in NYC Class B repeatedly and trained here. I think the reputations are overblown and based mostly on the novelty of the accents and some amusing audio clips that have circulated for years. Given the amazing volume they handle I’ve always found them nothing but crisp and professional. If you’re also basing your opinion on those audio clips rather than actually asking for clearances or navigating the exclusions I think you might also have the wrong impression.
FL410 5y ago
It’s not so much that they deviate from the norm (quite the opposite, there’s a manual that dictates exact phraseology), it’s just that there’s SO MUCH traffic that they don’t have time to hold hands, and they expect you to be competent. In other words, there’s very little time or room for error, and that can come off as rudeness. It is always the pilot’s prerogative to overrule ATC (if there’s a legitimate reason) and/or declare an emergency. And I assure you NY ATC would take it seriously if you do. They just don’t have time to dance around.
pininja 5y ago
> Are air traffic controllers even normally from the area where they work? Don't they get assigned? They are highly specialized on local facilities, weather, traffic flows, etc. The New York Metro area is one, if not the, most complicated airspace’s to control in the world. 4 major international airports (and tons of smaller airports/heliports) surrounding dense major cities with complicated weather, noise abatement procedures, and high congestion. There are dozens of air traffic controllers of all different seats (supervisors, arrivals, ground, towers, helicopters) in the region. It’s a lot of coordinate. This video gives a nice 3 minute overview: https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=1042 https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=1042
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  > 4 major international airports JFK, LGA, EWR, what’s the fourth one?
  - rospaya 5y ago
    Just found out the other day that LaGuardia is limited in its international flights, just like Reagan National in DC. It doesn't have US customs and border protection facilities.
  - hansthehorse 5y ago
    Teterboro

mattr47 5y ago

All ATC should be brusque and quick, especially in high traffic environments. The US Army's ATC units had the motto of "Safe, Orderly, & Expeditious."