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And people wonder why real estate prices and rent are through the roof in these cities. If you replace all that SFH zoning with 6 floor apartment complexes dens

And people wonder why real estate prices and rent are through the roof in these cities. If you replace all that SFH zoning with 6 floor apartment complexes density instantly goes up something like 10x. If you build like China with 50 floor towers then density goes up something like 100x.

haroldp 4y ago
> If you replace all that SFH zoning with 6 floor apartment complexes Or replace it with 2-6 story mixed-use, with commercial space on the ground floor, and density goes way up and suddenly you can survive without a car.
adamiscool8 4y ago
Sure, but you dramatically change the character of a city or neighbourhood when you upzone with that intensity. Real estate prices and rents would also come back to reality if rates go up meaningfully and foreign investment is banned without easy loopholes. But since BC (and Canada at large) have built their flywheel for growth on a giant RE ponzi scheme, we’re stuck debating supply side solutions to a fundamental demand problem.
- cameronpm 4y ago
  This is a great point about trying to fix Demand side problems with a Supply solution. This is a recent paper talking about this todo with nutrition (Does access to healthy food actually make people healthier?): https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/134/4/1793/5492274?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/134/4/1793/549... Here is another example with calorie labels (Do calorie labels actually reduce calorie intake?): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209007/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209007/
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    Calling it a demand side problem implies you don't want more people living in desirable areas (I'm guessing you live in one of these areas?). That is blatant NIMBYism mixed with some xenophobia. When you reduce demand people are priced out by high interest rates and have to move to less desirable locations. That has real impacts. People have to commute further to their jobs. People can't get their ideal jobs, not because they're not qualified, but because they can't afford housing. That is not an ideal outcome compared to just building more supply. Contrasting calorie consumption with the housing market is just disingenuous. One is clearly not a market and the other one clearly is. People like you are just going to have to understand that as population in North America grows cities are going to have to get denser and your lifestyle is no longer a viable one because it comes at the cost of millions of peoples' lives.
lbrito 4y ago
Right? To me as a foreigner living here its glaringly obvious that the affordability problem is at least in great part due to SFH zoning. I think basically anyone not native to the US or Canada immediately understands this. I'm glad to see this topic being increasingly discussed among locals instead of just the usual boogeymen (foreign investors is #1).
- Pxtl 4y ago
  Sadly, every layer of every government in Canada is determined to do explore literally every other possible option before allowing homes to be built. And realistically, fixing the problem will take decades. Years before governments come around. Years more before they finish their endless studies and legislation and actually legalize housing. Once housing starts getting built, it will be a knock-down battle to keep the changes. At the same time, we won't have the capacity built up yet to build it, so years more for new industrial capacity to come online - more companies, more trained personnel, more equipment. And then even more years for the supply to finally catch up with the demand. My oldest kid is 14 and he's either he's living in my basement until he's 40 or he's going to have to move to Texas.
- danbolt 4y ago
  As a Canadian, I think a big part of it is that elections (both federal and provincial) can often be battles for the suburbs surrounding metropolitan areas. Suburbs often end up being kingmakers (see 2015, 2019, and 2021 federal elections or BC’s 2020 election) so their priorities are often continually represented.
deanCommie 4y ago
They're working on it: https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-the-end-of-single-family-zoning-in-vancouver https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-the-e...
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Chinese apartment towers are mostly limited to around 30 stories using low skilled labor concrete construction techniques that aims to employ as much rural migrant workers as possible, India is the same. Incidentally, such 30 story apartment blocks are significant exports to the Middle East and Singapore that heavily use Indian and Chinese labor. But I’m not sure China is a good model for North America, they have a lot of density but an even worse property bubble, many bought apartments aren’t even renovated to be rented out (so actual density is much less than the capacity of these buildings). Such speculation was exported to Vancouver as well.
Tiktaalik 4y ago
The hypothetical density instantly goes up, though actual development might take a tad longer. Not arguing your point that this rezoning should take place, but just pointing out that housing development is a physical process and that even if Vancouver and British Columbia politicians do get their act together around land use policy, we're in a painful housing shortage hole that is going to take years to build our way out of. All the more reason to act sooner than later!

haroldp 4y ago

> If you replace all that SFH zoning with 6 floor apartment complexes Or replace it with 2-6 story mixed-use, with commercial space on the ground floor, and density goes way up and suddenly you can survive without a car.

adamiscool8 4y ago

Sure, but you dramatically change the character of a city or neighbourhood when you upzone with that intensity. Real estate prices and rents would also come back to reality if rates go up meaningfully and foreign investment is banned without easy loopholes. But since BC (and Canada at large) have built their flywheel for growth on a giant RE ponzi scheme, we’re stuck debating supply side solutions to a fundamental demand problem.

cameronpm 4y ago
This is a great point about trying to fix Demand side problems with a Supply solution. This is a recent paper talking about this todo with nutrition (Does access to healthy food actually make people healthier?): https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/134/4/1793/5492274?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/134/4/1793/549... Here is another example with calorie labels (Do calorie labels actually reduce calorie intake?): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209007/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209007/
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  Calling it a demand side problem implies you don't want more people living in desirable areas (I'm guessing you live in one of these areas?). That is blatant NIMBYism mixed with some xenophobia. When you reduce demand people are priced out by high interest rates and have to move to less desirable locations. That has real impacts. People have to commute further to their jobs. People can't get their ideal jobs, not because they're not qualified, but because they can't afford housing. That is not an ideal outcome compared to just building more supply. Contrasting calorie consumption with the housing market is just disingenuous. One is clearly not a market and the other one clearly is. People like you are just going to have to understand that as population in North America grows cities are going to have to get denser and your lifestyle is no longer a viable one because it comes at the cost of millions of peoples' lives.

lbrito 4y ago

Right? To me as a foreigner living here its glaringly obvious that the affordability problem is at least in great part due to SFH zoning. I think basically anyone not native to the US or Canada immediately understands this. I'm glad to see this topic being increasingly discussed among locals instead of just the usual boogeymen (foreign investors is #1).

Pxtl 4y ago
Sadly, every layer of every government in Canada is determined to do explore literally every other possible option before allowing homes to be built. And realistically, fixing the problem will take decades. Years before governments come around. Years more before they finish their endless studies and legislation and actually legalize housing. Once housing starts getting built, it will be a knock-down battle to keep the changes. At the same time, we won't have the capacity built up yet to build it, so years more for new industrial capacity to come online - more companies, more trained personnel, more equipment. And then even more years for the supply to finally catch up with the demand. My oldest kid is 14 and he's either he's living in my basement until he's 40 or he's going to have to move to Texas.
danbolt 4y ago
As a Canadian, I think a big part of it is that elections (both federal and provincial) can often be battles for the suburbs surrounding metropolitan areas. Suburbs often end up being kingmakers (see 2015, 2019, and 2021 federal elections or BC’s 2020 election) so their priorities are often continually represented.

deanCommie 4y ago

They're working on it: https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-the-end-of-single-family-zoning-in-vancouver https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-the-e...

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

Chinese apartment towers are mostly limited to around 30 stories using low skilled labor concrete construction techniques that aims to employ as much rural migrant workers as possible, India is the same. Incidentally, such 30 story apartment blocks are significant exports to the Middle East and Singapore that heavily use Indian and Chinese labor. But I’m not sure China is a good model for North America, they have a lot of density but an even worse property bubble, many bought apartments aren’t even renovated to be rented out (so actual density is much less than the capacity of these buildings). Such speculation was exported to Vancouver as well.

Tiktaalik 4y ago

The hypothetical density instantly goes up, though actual development might take a tad longer. Not arguing your point that this rezoning should take place, but just pointing out that housing development is a physical process and that even if Vancouver and British Columbia politicians do get their act together around land use policy, we're in a painful housing shortage hole that is going to take years to build our way out of. All the more reason to act sooner than later!