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> Linux on the other hand is just better for people who don't value their time as much and are happy to tinker with things at a very low level You criticize th

> Linux on the other hand is just better for people who don't value their time as much and are happy to tinker with things at a very low level You criticize the author for lacking self awareness, but then turn around and do the same. Many linux users (myself included) do not spend time 'tinkering'. I've had the same experience as the author. I've used linux almost exclusively since around 2000 and the few times I have to use windows, I'm completely stuck. It takes forever to get things done. Just helping my parents out with simple things like 'move these files', 'rename these photos', etc take hours and hours of work, whereas on linux it's like a minute. > Linux is not really a viable alternative for most mainstream non technical users. Perhaps that's true, but technical users are ... still users. > They're spinning a lot of plates, which is why it feels and looks the way it does to some extent. That's great, and while it may excuse their poor operating system, it doesn't suddenly make it a great OS.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
*>things like 'move these files' [...] take hours and hours of work Just how, may I ask? I never needed more than a few seconds to trigger the moving files action via the GUI.
- travisathougies 5y ago
  If it's more complicated than 'move this one file from folder A to folder B' it gets very complicated very fast. On linux, the 'normal' way to move files is using the terminal using 'mv'. On Windows, the terminal is available, but the main interface is the UI. It's easy to move one file. It's even easy to move several files 'next to' each other in the window. It's not easy to move files matching a particular name, or across multiple folders. So usually what happens is I have to find (perhaps even purchase) a purpose-built utility to do exactly what I want. Or, sit there and move files. Like ctrl+click on them (that interface is terrible by the way, because one click makes the entire selection go away... who thought that up?) and then move them. What other way is there without delving into automation? Windows Explorer cannot even do the most basic selection of 'select all files with NNN in the name'. It's completely useless for anything but the most silly of operations. Also, if you have to do actual work moving files between different filesystems or across network filesystems, it becomes even worse. You have to find something compatible with Windows, install it. It's probably some ad-containing shareware non-sense, so you pay for the license so you don't get bombarded with ads, a browser toolbar, and whatever other nonsense the MSI decided to install. Then, after about 30 minutes of downloading, installing and endless clicking on the 'do you want to allow this software to do blah' (which I never really read and click by default), it may or may not work. On linux, it's just mount. I don't really get the complaints about linux being hard to use. Different sure. But if you're used to it; if you grew up with it, it's mind-numbingly easy.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >On linux, the 'normal' way to move files is using the terminal using 'mv'. And that's exactly where you loose every average user when trying to convince them to switch from Windows to Linux. I work with Linux every day too but the command line elitism needs to stop. >if you have to do actual work moving files between different filesystems or across network filesystems This is the classic HN paradox where your 'actual work', differs from everyone else's 'actual work'. >Like ctrl+click on them (that interface is terrible by the way, because one click makes the entire selection go away... who thought that up? In Explorer go to: View -> Show -> Item checkboxes >Windows Explorer cannot even do the most basic selection of 'select all files with NNN in the name'. It's completely useless for anything but the most silly of operations. Type verbatim in the Explorer top-right search-bar : *NNN* Then Ctrl + A, and hey presto, all files containing NNN in your current directory are selected. The way I see it, the issue here is that you don't know how to use Explorer features, but instead of looking it up and learning how to use it, you're pushing the narrative that somehow it's Explorer's fault for you not bothering to look up such solutions. It' not like you were born with the Linux command line in your head. You had to take the time to learn all those commands and practice. Same with Windows and MacOS and other OS. You need to re-learn certain mechanics whenever you switch OS and it's not the OS's fault you refuse to do that and choose to remain stuck wanting everything to work the Linux way. >moving files between different filesystems or across network filesystems, it becomes even worse. You have to find something compatible with Windows, install it. For which file systems do you have to do that? Windows works out of the box with the storage of any consumer device or external mass storage device sold today and in the past 20+ years, even iPhones. The way I see it from your arguments, I only get that Windows is the wrong OS for you and your particular use cases, which is fair, but that's no argument that it's a bad OS in general for the avenge joe, as you keep moving the goals posts from copying and renaming files to linux power user activities, which you consider 'actual work'.
    - travisathougies 5y ago
      > And that's exactly where you loose every average user when trying to convince them to switch from Windows to Linux. I work with Linux every day too but the command line elitism needs to stop. I have made no argument that everyone needs to use the CLI. I like it, and it is a fair criticism of Windows to say that it makes things harder by not having it. That criticism rings true for me and many others. Some other people with different experiences probably think CLI is hard. That's fine. To each their own. The comment I responded to accused the author of being disingenous. I pointed out that (1) technical users are still users and (2) there are things that if you're used to a unix shell are simply an absolute pain to do on windows. > The way I see it, the issue here is that you don't know how to use Explorer features, but instead of looking it up and learning how to use it, you're pushing the narrative that somehow it's Explorer's fault for you not bothering to look up such solutions. It' not like you were born with the Linux command line in your head. You had to take the time to learn all those commands and practice. Same with Windows and MacOS and other OS. You need to re-learn certain mechanics whenever you switch OS and it's not the OS's fault you refuse to do that and choose to remain stuck wanting everything to work the Linux way. Okay, now do any file with a number at the end?

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

*>things like 'move these files' [...] take hours and hours of work Just how, may I ask? I never needed more than a few seconds to trigger the moving files action via the GUI.

travisathougies 5y ago
If it's more complicated than 'move this one file from folder A to folder B' it gets very complicated very fast. On linux, the 'normal' way to move files is using the terminal using 'mv'. On Windows, the terminal is available, but the main interface is the UI. It's easy to move one file. It's even easy to move several files 'next to' each other in the window. It's not easy to move files matching a particular name, or across multiple folders. So usually what happens is I have to find (perhaps even purchase) a purpose-built utility to do exactly what I want. Or, sit there and move files. Like ctrl+click on them (that interface is terrible by the way, because one click makes the entire selection go away... who thought that up?) and then move them. What other way is there without delving into automation? Windows Explorer cannot even do the most basic selection of 'select all files with NNN in the name'. It's completely useless for anything but the most silly of operations. Also, if you have to do actual work moving files between different filesystems or across network filesystems, it becomes even worse. You have to find something compatible with Windows, install it. It's probably some ad-containing shareware non-sense, so you pay for the license so you don't get bombarded with ads, a browser toolbar, and whatever other nonsense the MSI decided to install. Then, after about 30 minutes of downloading, installing and endless clicking on the 'do you want to allow this software to do blah' (which I never really read and click by default), it may or may not work. On linux, it's just mount. I don't really get the complaints about linux being hard to use. Different sure. But if you're used to it; if you grew up with it, it's mind-numbingly easy.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >On linux, the 'normal' way to move files is using the terminal using 'mv'. And that's exactly where you loose every average user when trying to convince them to switch from Windows to Linux. I work with Linux every day too but the command line elitism needs to stop. >if you have to do actual work moving files between different filesystems or across network filesystems This is the classic HN paradox where your 'actual work', differs from everyone else's 'actual work'. >Like ctrl+click on them (that interface is terrible by the way, because one click makes the entire selection go away... who thought that up? In Explorer go to: View -> Show -> Item checkboxes >Windows Explorer cannot even do the most basic selection of 'select all files with NNN in the name'. It's completely useless for anything but the most silly of operations. Type verbatim in the Explorer top-right search-bar : *NNN* Then Ctrl + A, and hey presto, all files containing NNN in your current directory are selected. The way I see it, the issue here is that you don't know how to use Explorer features, but instead of looking it up and learning how to use it, you're pushing the narrative that somehow it's Explorer's fault for you not bothering to look up such solutions. It' not like you were born with the Linux command line in your head. You had to take the time to learn all those commands and practice. Same with Windows and MacOS and other OS. You need to re-learn certain mechanics whenever you switch OS and it's not the OS's fault you refuse to do that and choose to remain stuck wanting everything to work the Linux way. >moving files between different filesystems or across network filesystems, it becomes even worse. You have to find something compatible with Windows, install it. For which file systems do you have to do that? Windows works out of the box with the storage of any consumer device or external mass storage device sold today and in the past 20+ years, even iPhones. The way I see it from your arguments, I only get that Windows is the wrong OS for you and your particular use cases, which is fair, but that's no argument that it's a bad OS in general for the avenge joe, as you keep moving the goals posts from copying and renaming files to linux power user activities, which you consider 'actual work'.
  - travisathougies 5y ago
    > And that's exactly where you loose every average user when trying to convince them to switch from Windows to Linux. I work with Linux every day too but the command line elitism needs to stop. I have made no argument that everyone needs to use the CLI. I like it, and it is a fair criticism of Windows to say that it makes things harder by not having it. That criticism rings true for me and many others. Some other people with different experiences probably think CLI is hard. That's fine. To each their own. The comment I responded to accused the author of being disingenous. I pointed out that (1) technical users are still users and (2) there are things that if you're used to a unix shell are simply an absolute pain to do on windows. > The way I see it, the issue here is that you don't know how to use Explorer features, but instead of looking it up and learning how to use it, you're pushing the narrative that somehow it's Explorer's fault for you not bothering to look up such solutions. It' not like you were born with the Linux command line in your head. You had to take the time to learn all those commands and practice. Same with Windows and MacOS and other OS. You need to re-learn certain mechanics whenever you switch OS and it's not the OS's fault you refuse to do that and choose to remain stuck wanting everything to work the Linux way. Okay, now do any file with a number at the end?