3 ms·

That was surprisingly balanced and reasonable. Even as long time Windows user I have to agree with everything he wrote and don't really have any real quibbles.

by dagw 5y ago

IshKebab 5y ago
Really? It's balanced even though the only advantage he gave to Windows is that firmware updates happen automatically? It's about the most biased thing I've ever read. He even lists some advantages (it doesn't have two different copy/paste buffers) as a disadvantage. What happened to: * Hardware all works mostly without issue. * Software is easy to install even if it isn't in the official store (e.g. apt). * Power management (sleep etc.) works reliably. * Settings are almost all GUI-accessible. You rarely have to fiddle on the command line etc.
- dagw 5y ago
  I'm guessing those things didn't apply to him or his use case. Yes, hardware support is better, but if your needs are simple you buy smartly, Linux also works pretty well. Yes, installing third party and closed source software is much easier on Windows and there is much more of it to chose from. This is in fact my main reason for using Windows. However if you're a developer and your entire job can be done using open source dev tools then this doesn't matter. Power management is better on Windows, but I wouldn't say it works "reliably". I've pulled many a hot, dead laptop from my backpack after it decided to wake up and kill itself after I thought it had gone to sleep. Apple is the only company that really be said to have solved this in my opinion. Settings being GUI-accessible is at best questionable advantage. It's nice for people who don't want to use the command line and don't see its point, but if you're used to and comfortable with the command line (like the author seems to be) it is far from a selling point. Plus just because the setting exists in GUI, that doesn't in any way solve the problem of actually locating where and how the set that setting.
- AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
  > * Software is easy to install even if it isn't in the official store (e.g. apt). You can install any .deb package not in the "official store" simply by typing: `dpkg -i package.deb`. This has essentially never failed in my decade+ of using Debian-based Linux OSes. It's pretty dang easy to install anything nowadays.
  - ntauthority 5y ago
    That is, assuming something is even packaged as a .deb for your distro's age in the first place. Trying to get something written using new, say, C++ runtime libraries shipped as a binary working on even a two year old Linux distro is a struggle in itself, meanwhile on Windows, the VC CRT bundled with VS2022 with C++22 support even runs fine as a bundled portable .dll down to Windows 7 (2009) and probably even before. Running modern libstdc++ (as a binary, mind you) on an otherwise 2009 distro on the other hand - unlikely. Even more so if you stray out of the GNU libc option, or want to deal with libc++ for some reason (such as cross-platform parity, as it is better behaved on Windows/Mac than libstdc++), or any other edge cases out of the usual /lib, especially for GUI apps or worse, GPU apps.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    Yeah as long as the software is provided in .deb format, doesn't use any newer dependencies than you have, and you're using Debian or Ubuntu. Not remotely the same as Windows where it just always works.
- jenscow 5y ago
  I get all 4 of those points with Linux.
- hanselot 5y ago
- bsuvc 5y ago
  All those points are true for me using Ubuntu on a Dell XPS 13. * Every piece of hardware has worked flawlessly: Ultrawide monitor, printer, wireless keyboard and mouse, Bluetooth mouse, Bluetooth headset, usb drives. * I am able to install most things I want using the software installer GUI or using command line apt, but sometimes I download a deb file directly, to install something that is not in apt. Other times I just download the executable and I am done (kubectl for example). * Never had a problem with sleep, it works fine for me every time, and I use it daily. * Settings are GUI accessible. It would be rare to be required to do something command line. I do a lot of command line work for development, but it is not really needed just to configure the OS or desktop environment.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > * Hardware all works mostly without issue. > * Power management (sleep etc.) works reliably. Man, I don't know. I just got a new HP work laptop at the end of last year. Some HP "enterprise" model, nothing fancy, which only officially supports Windows. It came preloaded with win 10 pro, even though "HP recommends Windows 11". Whatever. (The pc was manufactured in November 2021, so Win11 was already out). When I turn it on, my first impression was "damn, that's a dim screen". Even turned all the way up, with auto-dim disabled, it would still be just "meh". I rebooted in the BIOS, and it burned my eyes off. Install Linux: I get the full brightness. Brightness keys work out of the box, light sensor, sound / mic mute leds light up as needed, Wi-Fi, BT, IR camera, fingerprint reader, everything just works. I figure I should install a Win 11, just in case (I daily drive Linux, but work for a windows shop). What a freaking shitshow. Mostly nothing works out of the box. No brightness keys, not brightness sensor, no volume keys, the touchpad is barely usable. I have to go through multiple Windows update reboots (on a freshly created Windows install USB stick), and then start going through all the HP drivers, complete with reboots. For some reason, after the updates, the USB Ethernet adapter (from HP) doesn't work reliably anymore. And after all this song and dance, there's some USB controller that has an exclamation mark in device manager, and the webcam isn't detected. "Update the driver" doesn't find anything. There's also some weird lag with the audio LEDs. It has no idea there's an ambient light sensor. And if I tell it to sleep, it'll go to sleep and wake up after a while for no reason ("Wake up for updates" is of course disabled). > * Settings are almost all GUI-accessible. You rarely have to fiddle on the command line etc. But you have to fiddle with the registry. I wouldn't say that's that much better. Also, bonus points for whatever settings you do being undone on an update.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  And in turn, your proposed advantages are easy to call disadvantages; * Hardware mostly works, using the manufacture's drivers and all their bundled bloatware. * The official store is so bad that you have to go get software a different way. * Sleep I'll grant with the caveat that it's also mostly flawless on Linux these days so that's not really an advantage. * Settings are all in GUIs. Want to script your configuration? Good luck!
- eadmund 5y ago
  > It's about the most biased thing I've ever read. I gather from this that you either have not read many things in your life, or you are yourself an outlier. I found it to be completely unbiased, just reporting the facts of what it is like to use Windows after having become accustomed to Linux. > Hardware all works mostly without issue. I have not had a hardware issue with Linux in almost twenty years. > Software is easy to install even if it isn't in the official store (e.g. apt). ./configure && make && sudo make install is pretty damn easy to do. > Power management (sleep etc.) works reliably. A fair point, although it has gotten tremendously better. One of my laptops has never had a single sleep/suspend issue, and the other has an issue every several months (which is still too frequent). > Settings are almost all GUI-accessible. You rarely have to fiddle on the command line etc. I want all settings to be in text files, period, neither the command line nor a GUI. Just let me edit the settings!

That was surprisingly balanced and reasonable. Even as long time Windows user I have to agree with everything he wrote and don't really have any real quibbles.

by dagw 5y ago

That was surprisingly balanced and reasonable. Even as long time Windows user I have to agree with everything he wrote and don't really have any real quibbles.

IshKebab 5y ago

Really? It's balanced even though the only advantage he gave to Windows is that firmware updates happen automatically? It's about the most biased thing I've ever read. He even lists some advantages (it doesn't have two different copy/paste buffers) as a disadvantage. What happened to: * Hardware all works mostly without issue. * Software is easy to install even if it isn't in the official store (e.g. apt). * Power management (sleep etc.) works reliably. * Settings are almost all GUI-accessible. You rarely have to fiddle on the command line etc.

dagw 5y ago
I'm guessing those things didn't apply to him or his use case. Yes, hardware support is better, but if your needs are simple you buy smartly, Linux also works pretty well. Yes, installing third party and closed source software is much easier on Windows and there is much more of it to chose from. This is in fact my main reason for using Windows. However if you're a developer and your entire job can be done using open source dev tools then this doesn't matter. Power management is better on Windows, but I wouldn't say it works "reliably". I've pulled many a hot, dead laptop from my backpack after it decided to wake up and kill itself after I thought it had gone to sleep. Apple is the only company that really be said to have solved this in my opinion. Settings being GUI-accessible is at best questionable advantage. It's nice for people who don't want to use the command line and don't see its point, but if you're used to and comfortable with the command line (like the author seems to be) it is far from a selling point. Plus just because the setting exists in GUI, that doesn't in any way solve the problem of actually locating where and how the set that setting.
AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
> * Software is easy to install even if it isn't in the official store (e.g. apt). You can install any .deb package not in the "official store" simply by typing: `dpkg -i package.deb`. This has essentially never failed in my decade+ of using Debian-based Linux OSes. It's pretty dang easy to install anything nowadays.
- ntauthority 5y ago
  That is, assuming something is even packaged as a .deb for your distro's age in the first place. Trying to get something written using new, say, C++ runtime libraries shipped as a binary working on even a two year old Linux distro is a struggle in itself, meanwhile on Windows, the VC CRT bundled with VS2022 with C++22 support even runs fine as a bundled portable .dll down to Windows 7 (2009) and probably even before. Running modern libstdc++ (as a binary, mind you) on an otherwise 2009 distro on the other hand - unlikely. Even more so if you stray out of the GNU libc option, or want to deal with libc++ for some reason (such as cross-platform parity, as it is better behaved on Windows/Mac than libstdc++), or any other edge cases out of the usual /lib, especially for GUI apps or worse, GPU apps.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Yeah as long as the software is provided in .deb format, doesn't use any newer dependencies than you have, and you're using Debian or Ubuntu. Not remotely the same as Windows where it just always works.
jenscow 5y ago
I get all 4 of those points with Linux.
hanselot 5y ago
bsuvc 5y ago
All those points are true for me using Ubuntu on a Dell XPS 13. * Every piece of hardware has worked flawlessly: Ultrawide monitor, printer, wireless keyboard and mouse, Bluetooth mouse, Bluetooth headset, usb drives. * I am able to install most things I want using the software installer GUI or using command line apt, but sometimes I download a deb file directly, to install something that is not in apt. Other times I just download the executable and I am done (kubectl for example). * Never had a problem with sleep, it works fine for me every time, and I use it daily. * Settings are GUI accessible. It would be rare to be required to do something command line. I do a lot of command line work for development, but it is not really needed just to configure the OS or desktop environment.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
> * Hardware all works mostly without issue. > * Power management (sleep etc.) works reliably. Man, I don't know. I just got a new HP work laptop at the end of last year. Some HP "enterprise" model, nothing fancy, which only officially supports Windows. It came preloaded with win 10 pro, even though "HP recommends Windows 11". Whatever. (The pc was manufactured in November 2021, so Win11 was already out). When I turn it on, my first impression was "damn, that's a dim screen". Even turned all the way up, with auto-dim disabled, it would still be just "meh". I rebooted in the BIOS, and it burned my eyes off. Install Linux: I get the full brightness. Brightness keys work out of the box, light sensor, sound / mic mute leds light up as needed, Wi-Fi, BT, IR camera, fingerprint reader, everything just works. I figure I should install a Win 11, just in case (I daily drive Linux, but work for a windows shop). What a freaking shitshow. Mostly nothing works out of the box. No brightness keys, not brightness sensor, no volume keys, the touchpad is barely usable. I have to go through multiple Windows update reboots (on a freshly created Windows install USB stick), and then start going through all the HP drivers, complete with reboots. For some reason, after the updates, the USB Ethernet adapter (from HP) doesn't work reliably anymore. And after all this song and dance, there's some USB controller that has an exclamation mark in device manager, and the webcam isn't detected. "Update the driver" doesn't find anything. There's also some weird lag with the audio LEDs. It has no idea there's an ambient light sensor. And if I tell it to sleep, it'll go to sleep and wake up after a while for no reason ("Wake up for updates" is of course disabled). > * Settings are almost all GUI-accessible. You rarely have to fiddle on the command line etc. But you have to fiddle with the registry. I wouldn't say that's that much better. Also, bonus points for whatever settings you do being undone on an update.
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
And in turn, your proposed advantages are easy to call disadvantages; * Hardware mostly works, using the manufacture's drivers and all their bundled bloatware. * The official store is so bad that you have to go get software a different way. * Sleep I'll grant with the caveat that it's also mostly flawless on Linux these days so that's not really an advantage. * Settings are all in GUIs. Want to script your configuration? Good luck!
eadmund 5y ago
> It's about the most biased thing I've ever read. I gather from this that you either have not read many things in your life, or you are yourself an outlier. I found it to be completely unbiased, just reporting the facts of what it is like to use Windows after having become accustomed to Linux. > Hardware all works mostly without issue. I have not had a hardware issue with Linux in almost twenty years. > Software is easy to install even if it isn't in the official store (e.g. apt). ./configure && make && sudo make install is pretty damn easy to do. > Power management (sleep etc.) works reliably. A fair point, although it has gotten tremendously better. One of my laptops has never had a single sleep/suspend issue, and the other has an issue every several months (which is still too frequent). > Settings are almost all GUI-accessible. You rarely have to fiddle on the command line etc. I want all settings to be in text files, period, neither the command line nor a GUI. Just let me edit the settings!