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> None of us are or want to be sysadmins. It's such a huge misconception that by using a cloud provider you can avoid having "sysadmins" or don't need that kin

> None of us are or want to be sysadmins. It's such a huge misconception that by using a cloud provider you can avoid having "sysadmins" or don't need that kind of skills. You still need those, no matter which cloud and which service you use.

exfascist 5y ago
In fact, if you're using Linux on your workstation you'll use the same skills locally as you do on the VPS/bare metal (depending on your scale.) Arguably "cloud" services need more sysadmin skills, not less.
- lolinder 5y ago
  It's far easier to maintain my own Linux workstation than an internet-facing server used daily by customers.
  - exfascist 5y ago
    Absolutely but most of the knowledge translates, it's the procedures that differ.
    - lolinder 5y ago
      It's those different procedures that I'm trying to avoid. It's not that I couldn't do those things or learn to do them, it's that my time is best spent building and improving our applications, not keeping servers running, secured, and up to date. At some point we hope to get to the scale where it makes sense to pay a human to do that, but at this point the additional cost incurred by an ECS instance over an equivalent server is negligible.
- ChasingEchoes 5y ago
  Thats a very big if. I have yet to work with a $corp that uses Linux for workstations. Overwhelming majority uses Windows. Some use macOS. The ocasional developer that uses linux will usually be in a VM, or if IT policies allow, WSL. So yeah, running cloud services doesnt require sysadmin skills, unless you assume copy pasting from oficial documention "sysadmin skills".
  - xedrac 5y ago
    That's funny... every team I've been on in the last 10 years has used Linux workstations almost exclusively, with a few Macs here and there.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    In 27 years, I've had exactly two jobs where I didn't have Linux on my desktop, for a total of 5 out of those 27 years. In both cases, I still did all of my dev work on Linux. It boils down to what kind of jobs you look for. > So yeah, running cloud services doesnt require sysadmin skills, unless you assume copy pasting from oficial documention "sysadmin skills". If that's the extent of how you're managing your cloud setup, then I could equally argue running bare metal servers doesn't require sysadmin skills either. When I did contracting, a large part of my income was to come in and clean up after people had relied on "copy pasting from official documentation" as a substitute for actual ops.
lolinder 5y ago
Which skills specifically do you think we might be missing that we would need to run an app on a managed container service and managed database? I know how to configure firewalls, set up a (managed) load balancer, manage DNS, and similar tasks directly related to getting traffic to my app. What I no longer have to know how to do: keep track of drive space, manage database backups, install security updates on a production server without downtime, rotate SSH keys, and a whole bunch of other tasks adjacent to the app but not actually visible to incoming traffic at all.
- kissgyorgy 5y ago
  You still need to do backups, a database backup is just one part of that, if you are not following the 3-2-1 rules and don't test your restore mechanism, you don't have reliable backups. Those things you listed are sill sysadmin tasks in my eyes, and you are doing them, validating my point. You still have to track storage space, either because you are paying for it and need to expand when necessary, or you have to manage costs at one point, that's not completely out of the picture. It can be easier for sure than building your own storage hardware. You still need to keep systems up-to-date either you are using Docker so you are doing it on your "application level" or you are using Linux VMs and you need to upgrade those systems/images. Even if you are using something like Functions or Lambda, those have their own environment which you need to be aware of and they usually support specific versions of programming languages, so you need to upgrade your own stack when they don't support older versions anymore.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    I tell you that ECS has eliminated a ton of extra work for my team for a bargain price, and your response is "but you still have to do x, y, and z!" It's like saying that I shouldn't buy a dishwasher because I'd still have to wash the pots. Yes, we still need to do some sysadmin-y tasks. But ECS handles so many of them that we actually have the time, energy, and knowledge to take care of the few that remain. (As an aside, keeping language and OS versions up to date becomes a development task rather than an ops task when running Docker + ECS. We increment a version number in the repository and test everything, the same as we do for any library or framework that we depend on.)
odonnellryan 5y ago
I think the problem with cloud environments is you do not "need" sysadmins - it is not obvious you need them, so what you end up with is a bunch of systems glued together without much thought, and then crazy things like HTTP logs not being turned on for your various services, insane service costs b/c of not understanding pricing tiers, etc..
_huayra_ 5y ago
If you use purely PaaS offerings (or FaaS as well), then you also don't really need sysadmins. That's not to say that you can get away with knowing _no_ sysadmin skills in these scenarios, but you don't need to have someone on staff who knows the ins and outs of Cassandra or Mongo or whatever you're using. In awful workplaces with high turnover, it's worth it for management to opt for these managed services so that when the overworked tech lead decides to rightfully bail on them, she/he doesn't leave them in the lurch. (Note: I'm not defending these workplaces, but just explaining that when they can't keep adequate in-house talent to manage their own services, it makes financial sense to outsource it, and pay the "cloud tax").
Daishiman 5y ago
The difference doing ops setting up a couple of Lambdas or Fargate containers vs provisioning your own servers is substantial.

exfascist 5y ago

In fact, if you're using Linux on your workstation you'll use the same skills locally as you do on the VPS/bare metal (depending on your scale.) Arguably "cloud" services need more sysadmin skills, not less.

lolinder 5y ago
It's far easier to maintain my own Linux workstation than an internet-facing server used daily by customers.
- exfascist 5y ago
  Absolutely but most of the knowledge translates, it's the procedures that differ.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    It's those different procedures that I'm trying to avoid. It's not that I couldn't do those things or learn to do them, it's that my time is best spent building and improving our applications, not keeping servers running, secured, and up to date. At some point we hope to get to the scale where it makes sense to pay a human to do that, but at this point the additional cost incurred by an ECS instance over an equivalent server is negligible.
ChasingEchoes 5y ago
Thats a very big if. I have yet to work with a $corp that uses Linux for workstations. Overwhelming majority uses Windows. Some use macOS. The ocasional developer that uses linux will usually be in a VM, or if IT policies allow, WSL. So yeah, running cloud services doesnt require sysadmin skills, unless you assume copy pasting from oficial documention "sysadmin skills".
- xedrac 5y ago
  That's funny... every team I've been on in the last 10 years has used Linux workstations almost exclusively, with a few Macs here and there.
- vidarh 5y ago
  In 27 years, I've had exactly two jobs where I didn't have Linux on my desktop, for a total of 5 out of those 27 years. In both cases, I still did all of my dev work on Linux. It boils down to what kind of jobs you look for. > So yeah, running cloud services doesnt require sysadmin skills, unless you assume copy pasting from oficial documention "sysadmin skills". If that's the extent of how you're managing your cloud setup, then I could equally argue running bare metal servers doesn't require sysadmin skills either. When I did contracting, a large part of my income was to come in and clean up after people had relied on "copy pasting from official documentation" as a substitute for actual ops.

lolinder 5y ago

Which skills specifically do you think we might be missing that we would need to run an app on a managed container service and managed database? I know how to configure firewalls, set up a (managed) load balancer, manage DNS, and similar tasks directly related to getting traffic to my app. What I no longer have to know how to do: keep track of drive space, manage database backups, install security updates on a production server without downtime, rotate SSH keys, and a whole bunch of other tasks adjacent to the app but not actually visible to incoming traffic at all.

kissgyorgy 5y ago
You still need to do backups, a database backup is just one part of that, if you are not following the 3-2-1 rules and don't test your restore mechanism, you don't have reliable backups. Those things you listed are sill sysadmin tasks in my eyes, and you are doing them, validating my point. You still have to track storage space, either because you are paying for it and need to expand when necessary, or you have to manage costs at one point, that's not completely out of the picture. It can be easier for sure than building your own storage hardware. You still need to keep systems up-to-date either you are using Docker so you are doing it on your "application level" or you are using Linux VMs and you need to upgrade those systems/images. Even if you are using something like Functions or Lambda, those have their own environment which you need to be aware of and they usually support specific versions of programming languages, so you need to upgrade your own stack when they don't support older versions anymore.
- lolinder 5y ago
  I tell you that ECS has eliminated a ton of extra work for my team for a bargain price, and your response is "but you still have to do x, y, and z!" It's like saying that I shouldn't buy a dishwasher because I'd still have to wash the pots. Yes, we still need to do some sysadmin-y tasks. But ECS handles so many of them that we actually have the time, energy, and knowledge to take care of the few that remain. (As an aside, keeping language and OS versions up to date becomes a development task rather than an ops task when running Docker + ECS. We increment a version number in the repository and test everything, the same as we do for any library or framework that we depend on.)

odonnellryan 5y ago

I think the problem with cloud environments is you do not "need" sysadmins - it is not obvious you need them, so what you end up with is a bunch of systems glued together without much thought, and then crazy things like HTTP logs not being turned on for your various services, insane service costs b/c of not understanding pricing tiers, etc..

_huayra_ 5y ago

If you use purely PaaS offerings (or FaaS as well), then you also don't really need sysadmins. That's not to say that you can get away with knowing _no_ sysadmin skills in these scenarios, but you don't need to have someone on staff who knows the ins and outs of Cassandra or Mongo or whatever you're using. In awful workplaces with high turnover, it's worth it for management to opt for these managed services so that when the overworked tech lead decides to rightfully bail on them, she/he doesn't leave them in the lurch. (Note: I'm not defending these workplaces, but just explaining that when they can't keep adequate in-house talent to manage their own services, it makes financial sense to outsource it, and pay the "cloud tax").

Daishiman 5y ago

The difference doing ops setting up a couple of Lambdas or Fargate containers vs provisioning your own servers is substantial.