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Wind energy is nice and stuff but the moment there’s no wind you have no electricity, it’s not a good energy source if you want to actually remove gas from your

Wind energy is nice and stuff but the moment there’s no wind you have no electricity, it’s not a good energy source if you want to actually remove gas from your grid.

8bitsrule 5y ago
Denmark (~1% of the world population) has been doing quite well with it's 2GW of wind, powered by "modest average wind speeds in the range of 4.9–5.6 m/s measured at 10 m height." With a mean January temp of 1.5 °C (34.7 °F), wind covered 47% of yearly electric in 2019. (71% yesterday). Plans on 84% by 2035. It also has 1GW of solar. They got started early, and it shows. Too bad for heel-dragging Texans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark https://en.winddenmark.dk/wind-in-denmark/current-energy-production https://en.winddenmark.dk/wind-in-denmark/current-energy-pro...
imtringued 5y ago
Is this a joke? Throttling gas plants is much easier than throttling coal plants. If the wind blows you consume less gas. With coal you have to turn the wind plant off. Also, fossil fuels appear to be highly unreliable. The moment there’s no gas you have no electricity, it’s not a good energy source.
atoav 5y ago
Isn't it a bit naive to assume the planers of these expansions didn't at one point or another had that exact thought themselves? I mean it is certainly not the most far out there idea when it comes to wind power..
- atoav 5y ago
  As a German electrical engineer that knows the rigour with which the whole electrical industry works here I am confident this will not be an issue in Germany. Cold winters are not a new thing here.
- kodah 5y ago
  No, because that's exactly what happened in Texas during their winter storm crisis.
  - dpierce9 5y ago
    That was only part of the Texas issue. Many Nat Gas plants were also offline. For nearly the whole time Nat Gas outages were 2x wind outages according to ERCOT. Here is their own report: https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2021/04/28/ERCOT_Winter_Storm_Generator_Outages_By_Cause_Updated_Report_4.27.21.pdf https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2021/04/28/ERCOT_Winter_Sto...
    - kodah 5y ago
      Correct, they were, which reinforces the point.
      - chess_buster 5y ago
        Buuuut... the problem is that they didn't weather proof their system even though they were informend about the problems this could cause in winter storm scenarios. The weatherproofed windpower plants as well als gas plants function very well in Germany, Norway, etc. even though it is often a lot colder.
        zdragnar 5y ago
        Do weatherproofed wind turbines consume electricity? A common complaint around here is that they need to keep the blades heated to avoid frost and ice buildup, even when the wind is not blowing (we do have a lot of still days in winter). In bad conditions, if that is still the case, having wind turbines connected to the grid might be worse than having none.
        atoav 5y ago
        In bad conditions this is the case foe every power plant. The good thing is, that wind turbines are highly distributed, so the chance for every single one being in bad conditions is slim.
epgui 5y ago
That’s why energy storage is important.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  ... and batteries are not the solution at scale to that problem. The current global installed capacity of batteries can barely deliver a handful of gigawatt hours of energy. a medium scale grid like the Netherlands will use that amount in a handful of minutes.
  - chess_buster 5y ago
    Therefore they will use stored hydrogen in the gas plants. The hydrogen will be electrolyzed using renewable energy when it's too much.
  - gherkinnn 5y ago
    Lakes make for good batteries. Geography provided.
  - epgui 5y ago
    “current capacity” is indeed insufficient, but we’re talking about what ought to be in the future, not about what is in the present.
    - Georgelemental 5y ago
      The technology to do that at reasonable cost does not exist and likely won't be developed in the near future.
      - adrianN 5y ago
        What's a reasonable cost? Wind and solar are pretty cheap, and you can spend quite a bit on technology that you only need a couple of weeks of the year without doubling the average price.
      - epgui 5y ago
phatfish 5y ago
Most of western Europe has an electricity grid to distribute power. When the wind is blowing it covers domestic needs or exports, when it's not blowing it imports nuclear power, or Solar etc.

Wind energy is nice and stuff but the moment there’s no wind you have no electricity, it’s not a good energy source if you want to actually remove gas from your grid.

8bitsrule 5y ago

Denmark (~1% of the world population) has been doing quite well with it's 2GW of wind, powered by "modest average wind speeds in the range of 4.9–5.6 m/s measured at 10 m height." With a mean January temp of 1.5 °C (34.7 °F), wind covered 47% of yearly electric in 2019. (71% yesterday). Plans on 84% by 2035. It also has 1GW of solar. They got started early, and it shows. Too bad for heel-dragging Texans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark https://en.winddenmark.dk/wind-in-denmark/current-energy-production https://en.winddenmark.dk/wind-in-denmark/current-energy-pro...

imtringued 5y ago

Is this a joke? Throttling gas plants is much easier than throttling coal plants. If the wind blows you consume less gas. With coal you have to turn the wind plant off. Also, fossil fuels appear to be highly unreliable. The moment there’s no gas you have no electricity, it’s not a good energy source.

atoav 5y ago

Isn't it a bit naive to assume the planers of these expansions didn't at one point or another had that exact thought themselves? I mean it is certainly not the most far out there idea when it comes to wind power..

atoav 5y ago
As a German electrical engineer that knows the rigour with which the whole electrical industry works here I am confident this will not be an issue in Germany. Cold winters are not a new thing here.
kodah 5y ago
No, because that's exactly what happened in Texas during their winter storm crisis.
- dpierce9 5y ago
  That was only part of the Texas issue. Many Nat Gas plants were also offline. For nearly the whole time Nat Gas outages were 2x wind outages according to ERCOT. Here is their own report: https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2021/04/28/ERCOT_Winter_Storm_Generator_Outages_By_Cause_Updated_Report_4.27.21.pdf https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2021/04/28/ERCOT_Winter_Sto...
  - kodah 5y ago
    Correct, they were, which reinforces the point.
    - chess_buster 5y ago
      Buuuut... the problem is that they didn't weather proof their system even though they were informend about the problems this could cause in winter storm scenarios. The weatherproofed windpower plants as well als gas plants function very well in Germany, Norway, etc. even though it is often a lot colder.
      - zdragnar 5y ago
        Do weatherproofed wind turbines consume electricity? A common complaint around here is that they need to keep the blades heated to avoid frost and ice buildup, even when the wind is not blowing (we do have a lot of still days in winter). In bad conditions, if that is still the case, having wind turbines connected to the grid might be worse than having none.
        atoav 5y ago
        In bad conditions this is the case foe every power plant. The good thing is, that wind turbines are highly distributed, so the chance for every single one being in bad conditions is slim.

epgui 5y ago

That’s why energy storage is important.

eldaisfish 5y ago
... and batteries are not the solution at scale to that problem. The current global installed capacity of batteries can barely deliver a handful of gigawatt hours of energy. a medium scale grid like the Netherlands will use that amount in a handful of minutes.
- chess_buster 5y ago
  Therefore they will use stored hydrogen in the gas plants. The hydrogen will be electrolyzed using renewable energy when it's too much.
- gherkinnn 5y ago
  Lakes make for good batteries. Geography provided.
- epgui 5y ago
  “current capacity” is indeed insufficient, but we’re talking about what ought to be in the future, not about what is in the present.
  - Georgelemental 5y ago
    The technology to do that at reasonable cost does not exist and likely won't be developed in the near future.
    - adrianN 5y ago
      What's a reasonable cost? Wind and solar are pretty cheap, and you can spend quite a bit on technology that you only need a couple of weeks of the year without doubling the average price.
    - epgui 5y ago

phatfish 5y ago

Most of western Europe has an electricity grid to distribute power. When the wind is blowing it covers domestic needs or exports, when it's not blowing it imports nuclear power, or Solar etc.