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Off topic. But the idea of "summer school" I've picked from the first page is so terrible that it hurt me badly just by reading it. "Extra classes are how to

Off topic. But the idea of "summer school" I've picked from the first page is so terrible that it hurt me badly just by reading it. "Extra classes are how to get ahead, mom said." - Why should a child care about "getting ahead"? Now adults don't get enough of this so we have to torture children too? Will probably be sad for the rest of the day.

bmj 15y ago
Agreed. It's interesting how culture arcs between similar practices. Prior to the 20th century (and likely prior to the 1940s) in the U.S., children often did large amounts of work. There was a period of "kids being kids" as we enjoyed prosperity (and a move away from factories and farms), but we seem to be swinging back in the direction of "kids as workers," albeit for different reasons.
ZeroGravitas 15y ago
It's perhaps worth noting that there's research showing that poorer, less supported children actually regress during long summer breaks, while those with a family with a "get ahead" attitude maintain or improve. For that reason alone I'd abolish long summer breaks (and homework, which also actively hurts the progress of less supported children) perhaps trading off shorter days and/or more regular but shorter holiday breaks.
- pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  >that poorer, less supported children actually regress during long summer breaks // Presumably you mean poorer as in less financially wealthy. Is this just an observation that parents who educate their kids educate their kids? Isn't your proposal just a way of harming the education of more able kids? If parents are neglecting to aid their children's education over a long summer break why do you feel that dividing that break up will stop the parents from neglecting to aid their children's education? Less homework I'll go with.
  - ZeroGravitas 15y ago
    I believe the mechanism is simply that you forget stuff if not actively using it (for the long holidays) and that practising something you are doing wrong is more harmful than not doing it at all (for homework). Both problems are mitigated by having parents that have the time, ability and inclination to help you. If we're trying to find out who has the most well-off parents we could abolish school and award jobs based on the zipcode you were born in. If we're trying to actually educate a population then we should ditch the long holidays and the homework. This would only hurt better-off children relatively (and may even help some or even all of them in absolute terms), as their peers would no longer be such poor students. I like to think the benefits of having an educated population would outweigh the benefit of being a big fish in an educationally small pond.
    - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      >the most well-off parents // You make good points but you appear to be equating financial poverty with intellectual poverty. Whilst there are probably pretty well defined links and very strong correlations they are not coterminous factors. >If we're trying to actually educate a population then we should ditch the long holidays and the homework. // Yes educating populations is a different consideration. What I'd ask first is for what purpose you're educating the population? Don't presuppose a direction behind that question please, I'm absolutely not saying that people shouldn't be educated (possibly even against their will) but one needs to start the whole system with an ideal IMO to which to work - why?
jgrahamc 15y ago
This thinking is very common amongst a certain class of parents. Trying talking to parents of children in private school. They are often hyper-competitive; constantly comparing their children against their classmates and forcing them from an early age (primary level) into extra classes to 'get ahead'. This was once summarized for me by someone in Palo Alto as "it's either Harvard or the gutter".
- guard-of-terra 15y ago
  I understand that, but for me, summer holidays are sacred. You can cramp more useless things (think music school or painting) into the rest of the year, but don't you dare touch summer!
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >You can cramp more useless things (think music school or painting) into the rest of the year, but don't you dare touch summer! // I used to think that art was useless. Then I grew up and now I think that it's pretty essential to a fulfilled life. Not to material wealth but to personal enrichment. FWIW I'm rubbish at artistic realism and can barely hold a tune singing (I've no sense of rhythm either).
    - guard-of-terra 15y ago
      Participating in art by consuming or by producing? The latter has a pretty poor performance when done by kids. In the best case they go to music school/painting lessons and earn no skills and no satisfaction and no results; in worse case they show some promise and try to study art only to figure out that they can't live off art and they aren't that good anyway. I was in the first bucket.
      - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
        Producing. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
sangaya 15y ago
Just a thought, "getting ahead" can be for that child's own enjoyment. The concept of getting the required tasks complete in an efficient manner so that you can focus on the tasks most interesting to you is a skill I think everyone can benefit from. Certainly it helps to learn this sooner in life than later. I took summer school to get classes like Health, Drivers Ed, and so forth out of the way to make room in my schedule for classes I wanted to take but wouldn't have been able to otherwise: Woodworking, Introduction to Networking (ICDN1), and Computer Repair (A+ Cert). Also, summer school was a neat experience. It was ran much more like a long lecture in college than your standard high school class and introduced me to people that became friends I wouldn't have otherwise met.
- guard-of-terra 15y ago
  Why do you have spend your precious time off to be able to take courses that you want? Why can't you just take the courses you want while staying on schedule? IMO dipping into summer holidays more or less equals unpaid overtime at work. Society can force one to do that, but it's unfair, draining and not that much productive.

bmj 15y ago

Agreed. It's interesting how culture arcs between similar practices. Prior to the 20th century (and likely prior to the 1940s) in the U.S., children often did large amounts of work. There was a period of "kids being kids" as we enjoyed prosperity (and a move away from factories and farms), but we seem to be swinging back in the direction of "kids as workers," albeit for different reasons.

ZeroGravitas 15y ago

It's perhaps worth noting that there's research showing that poorer, less supported children actually regress during long summer breaks, while those with a family with a "get ahead" attitude maintain or improve. For that reason alone I'd abolish long summer breaks (and homework, which also actively hurts the progress of less supported children) perhaps trading off shorter days and/or more regular but shorter holiday breaks.

pbhjpbhj 15y ago
>that poorer, less supported children actually regress during long summer breaks // Presumably you mean poorer as in less financially wealthy. Is this just an observation that parents who educate their kids educate their kids? Isn't your proposal just a way of harming the education of more able kids? If parents are neglecting to aid their children's education over a long summer break why do you feel that dividing that break up will stop the parents from neglecting to aid their children's education? Less homework I'll go with.
- ZeroGravitas 15y ago
  I believe the mechanism is simply that you forget stuff if not actively using it (for the long holidays) and that practising something you are doing wrong is more harmful than not doing it at all (for homework). Both problems are mitigated by having parents that have the time, ability and inclination to help you. If we're trying to find out who has the most well-off parents we could abolish school and award jobs based on the zipcode you were born in. If we're trying to actually educate a population then we should ditch the long holidays and the homework. This would only hurt better-off children relatively (and may even help some or even all of them in absolute terms), as their peers would no longer be such poor students. I like to think the benefits of having an educated population would outweigh the benefit of being a big fish in an educationally small pond.
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >the most well-off parents // You make good points but you appear to be equating financial poverty with intellectual poverty. Whilst there are probably pretty well defined links and very strong correlations they are not coterminous factors. >If we're trying to actually educate a population then we should ditch the long holidays and the homework. // Yes educating populations is a different consideration. What I'd ask first is for what purpose you're educating the population? Don't presuppose a direction behind that question please, I'm absolutely not saying that people shouldn't be educated (possibly even against their will) but one needs to start the whole system with an ideal IMO to which to work - why?

jgrahamc 15y ago

This thinking is very common amongst a certain class of parents. Trying talking to parents of children in private school. They are often hyper-competitive; constantly comparing their children against their classmates and forcing them from an early age (primary level) into extra classes to 'get ahead'. This was once summarized for me by someone in Palo Alto as "it's either Harvard or the gutter".

guard-of-terra 15y ago
I understand that, but for me, summer holidays are sacred. You can cramp more useless things (think music school or painting) into the rest of the year, but don't you dare touch summer!
- pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  >You can cramp more useless things (think music school or painting) into the rest of the year, but don't you dare touch summer! // I used to think that art was useless. Then I grew up and now I think that it's pretty essential to a fulfilled life. Not to material wealth but to personal enrichment. FWIW I'm rubbish at artistic realism and can barely hold a tune singing (I've no sense of rhythm either).
  - guard-of-terra 15y ago
    Participating in art by consuming or by producing? The latter has a pretty poor performance when done by kids. In the best case they go to music school/painting lessons and earn no skills and no satisfaction and no results; in worse case they show some promise and try to study art only to figure out that they can't live off art and they aren't that good anyway. I was in the first bucket.
    - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      Producing. It's not the destination, it's the journey.

sangaya 15y ago

Just a thought, "getting ahead" can be for that child's own enjoyment. The concept of getting the required tasks complete in an efficient manner so that you can focus on the tasks most interesting to you is a skill I think everyone can benefit from. Certainly it helps to learn this sooner in life than later. I took summer school to get classes like Health, Drivers Ed, and so forth out of the way to make room in my schedule for classes I wanted to take but wouldn't have been able to otherwise: Woodworking, Introduction to Networking (ICDN1), and Computer Repair (A+ Cert). Also, summer school was a neat experience. It was ran much more like a long lecture in college than your standard high school class and introduced me to people that became friends I wouldn't have otherwise met.

guard-of-terra 15y ago
Why do you have spend your precious time off to be able to take courses that you want? Why can't you just take the courses you want while staying on schedule? IMO dipping into summer holidays more or less equals unpaid overtime at work. Society can force one to do that, but it's unfair, draining and not that much productive.