7 ms·

or they actually listen to our feedback, remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release, then i'd be more happy to give their product another chan

or they actually listen to our feedback, remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release, then i'd be more happy to give their product another chance although no guarantee they'll not turn evil at some point in the future...

encryptluks2 5y ago
If they start out evil, then don't expect them to change.
- nicce 5y ago
  Usually the practice in these scenarios is to try out all possible ways to make out money and then go a little backwards once the public outcry is big enough. At some point you find the most profitable balance situation, before you have expelled all customers.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    There is a plethora of free GPU-accelerated terminals. Alacritty, kitty, foot, wezterm, etc. None of these as far as I know send telemetry data. I see no reason to think that a new terminal is going to make money somehow by finding a balance.
    - nicce 5y ago
      My comparison was about business models of these "evil" cases in general, not about terminals particularly. On general, free apps tends to need find a balance how much users can tolerate their "exploitation" and how much they get from the app, if the app maker wants to make some money. I don't personally see any reason to swap terminal with telemetry. One of my worst fears that some day I am forced to.
- Groxx 5y ago
  Wanting to collect usage information and errors isn't evil-by-default. It's incomparably useful for troubleshooting and improving. Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. But yeah, terminals are very sensitive environments, opt-in should be a default even at launch.
  - cestith 5y ago
    I appreciate the balanced, reasonable discussion. I agree both that telemetry is useful and that there's not necessarily a place for it in the tool I use to manage my workstation and hundreds of servers. Perhaps I'd opt in to a middle ground, that is collect telemetry locally into a support file I can review, evaluate, and potentially redact before submission.
  - triska 5y ago
    > Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. Is this really the case? It seems that to find mistakes in software for various interaction patterns, truly exhaustive automated tests would likely work far better by various measures (coverage, reliability, reproducibility, reusability etc.) and at the same time do not have the extreme downside of privacy invasion. For example, see a section from the Age of Empires Post Mortem https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives-postmortem-ensemble-s-age-of-empires- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives... : "8. We didn’t take enough advantage of automated testing. In the final weeks of development, we set up the game to automatically play up to eight computers against each other. Additionally, a second computer containing the development platform and debugger could monitor each computer that took part. These games, while randomly generated, were logged so that if anything happened, we could reproduce the exact game over and over until we isolated the problem. The games themselves were allowed to run at an accelerated speed and were left running overnight. This was a great success and helped us in isolating very hard to reproduce problems. Our failure was in not doing this earlier in development; it could have saved us a great deal of time and effort. All of our future production plans now include automated testing from Day One."
    - throw10920 5y ago
heavyset_go 5y ago
Profit motive means that even if they do that now, they're incentivized to collect data in the future. From the standpoint of investors, leaving that revenue stream on the table would be dumb, considering every other company in tech spaces draws revenue from collecting their customers' data. If a company is committed to never spying, then they'd have no problem making such terms contractually binding on their end. Companies that say they're against spying, but leave the option to collect their users' data open for the future, aren't really committed to not spying.
bongobingo1 5y ago
> remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release Then why would anybody bother to invest in their next series?
- achenet 5y ago
  because they have a growing number of paying customers.

encryptluks2 5y ago

If they start out evil, then don't expect them to change.

nicce 5y ago
Usually the practice in these scenarios is to try out all possible ways to make out money and then go a little backwards once the public outcry is big enough. At some point you find the most profitable balance situation, before you have expelled all customers.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  There is a plethora of free GPU-accelerated terminals. Alacritty, kitty, foot, wezterm, etc. None of these as far as I know send telemetry data. I see no reason to think that a new terminal is going to make money somehow by finding a balance.
  - nicce 5y ago
    My comparison was about business models of these "evil" cases in general, not about terminals particularly. On general, free apps tends to need find a balance how much users can tolerate their "exploitation" and how much they get from the app, if the app maker wants to make some money. I don't personally see any reason to swap terminal with telemetry. One of my worst fears that some day I am forced to.
Groxx 5y ago
Wanting to collect usage information and errors isn't evil-by-default. It's incomparably useful for troubleshooting and improving. Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. But yeah, terminals are very sensitive environments, opt-in should be a default even at launch.
- cestith 5y ago
  I appreciate the balanced, reasonable discussion. I agree both that telemetry is useful and that there's not necessarily a place for it in the tool I use to manage my workstation and hundreds of servers. Perhaps I'd opt in to a middle ground, that is collect telemetry locally into a support file I can review, evaluate, and potentially redact before submission.
- triska 5y ago
  > Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. Is this really the case? It seems that to find mistakes in software for various interaction patterns, truly exhaustive automated tests would likely work far better by various measures (coverage, reliability, reproducibility, reusability etc.) and at the same time do not have the extreme downside of privacy invasion. For example, see a section from the Age of Empires Post Mortem https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives-postmortem-ensemble-s-age-of-empires- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives... : "8. We didn’t take enough advantage of automated testing. In the final weeks of development, we set up the game to automatically play up to eight computers against each other. Additionally, a second computer containing the development platform and debugger could monitor each computer that took part. These games, while randomly generated, were logged so that if anything happened, we could reproduce the exact game over and over until we isolated the problem. The games themselves were allowed to run at an accelerated speed and were left running overnight. This was a great success and helped us in isolating very hard to reproduce problems. Our failure was in not doing this earlier in development; it could have saved us a great deal of time and effort. All of our future production plans now include automated testing from Day One."
  - throw10920 5y ago

heavyset_go 5y ago

Profit motive means that even if they do that now, they're incentivized to collect data in the future. From the standpoint of investors, leaving that revenue stream on the table would be dumb, considering every other company in tech spaces draws revenue from collecting their customers' data. If a company is committed to never spying, then they'd have no problem making such terms contractually binding on their end. Companies that say they're against spying, but leave the option to collect their users' data open for the future, aren't really committed to not spying.

bongobingo1 5y ago

> remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release Then why would anybody bother to invest in their next series?

achenet 5y ago
because they have a growing number of paying customers.