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One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises
by the_af 5y ago
One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed.
Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the point, staying shallow and forgetting the "message", which was PUNK: a rebellion and a rejection of the mainstream state of affairs. Gibson was a punk writer, and his writing was a critique of Reaganomics and the direction the world was going back then.
I think he means we need a different kind of critique now, not anchored to neon lights and vaguely Japanese inspired retrofuturistic aesthetics which look like what the 80s thought the future would be. And nothing can be more conformist and anti-punk than lazily copying a now classic aesthetic and doing nothing else with it.
That said, I love that aesthetic myself, and have no problem being stuck in the past. But I see his point.
- notreallyserio 5y agoIronically, focusing criticism on the aesthetics is itself "staying shallow". Much cyberpunk media does serve as a critique of the status quo or an imagined future dystopia, as I assume he would prefer, but with some neon on the surface.
- the_af 5y agoI don't think Gibson minds the aesthetic in particular; what he is saying, if I understand him correctly, is that nobody cares about cyberpunk except for the aesthetic. There's nothing beyond it. If there is something, it's the same old tropes about big bad evil 80s-style corporations, usually with a vague Japanese or Asian theme. Everything that was novel about cyberpunk has now been absorbed into the mainstream and has become just another trope to be used by videogame/movie/anime authors. It's as lazy as it gets, and definitely not punk.
- pmoriarty 5y ago"It's as lazy as it gets, and definitely not punk." Reading is not very punk, though arguing what punk is is definitely punk.
- Loughla 5y agoI would argue that reading, today, absolutely is punk. When the main-stream is delivered at a sixth grade level, in 15 second sound bites with talking heads or funny dances behind it. . . what is more punk that being extraordinarily well-read?
- TremendousJudge 5y ago>what is more punk that being extraordinarily well-read Having recently been to several punk rock shows (read: damp basement noise fests), I'd say: having a blue collar job, being against "the system", doing copious amounts of cocaine and speed on their time off, and having their entire body blasted with tattoos such as a hand flipping you off, a trash can overflowing with garbage, and many insults. I thought this particular kind of people didn't exist anymore, but no, they're still alive and moshing in the basements of most cities.
- porbelm 5y agoThat's just a mainstream punk aesthetic though A blue collar person with tattoos that is also WELL READ instead of JUST moshing though? That's punk.
- teknopaul 5y agoAfter cyberpunk came steampunk (and all the other x-punks) devoid of anything but visual aesthetic; He has a point IMHO; Big fan of Invurt:: groks cyberpunk; made no attempt to copy the aesthetic;
- ghostpepper 5y agoWhat is Invurt?
- throw1234651234 5y agoCyberpunk 2077 is very much a disappointment in every sense other than the scope of the project. Every single aspect of it is a cheap, shallow rip-off. It adds nothing of value to anything, though enjoyable in the way Mortal Combat is. Still, Mortal Combat was far more ground-breaking and original - that about sums up how much of a "derivative work" Cyberpunk 2077 is.
- glenstein 5y agoRight, and I wouldn't want to generalize too much from that example, as I think parent commenter does. One dimension of Cyberpunk as envisioned by William Gibson genuinely was explicitly aesthetic, in the way in which it was meant to be understood and experienced. So derivatives focusing on that aren't necessarily missing the point. However, it's still certainly possible to reproduce those aesthetics in bad ways, or to lean on them to the exclusion of any deep message or story of any kind, etc. And it's certainly fair to criticize any given derivative for shallowness of vision. So, as a criticism of Cyberpunk 2077 it's perfectly appropriate, but I don't think execution of aesthetics in and of itself misses the point.
- the_af 5y ago> "as I think parent commenter does" Point of correction: I'm trying to convey what Gibson said. If there's a generalization, it's not mine but his. The guy invented cyberpunk, so I think he has a right to holding very strong opinions about it. I do tend to agree with Gibson, but I also like the aesthetic and I'm content reading and looking at cyberpunk, as long as it's not too lazy.
- glenstein 5y agoAnd my point was, and is, that I don't think he's making the point you seem to think he is making. And sure, he's got every right to be opinionated, but you're not quoting or citing anything (although I understand you're referencing a tweet of his re: Cyberpunk 2077 and are referencing an interview), so what we are working with here are extrapolations that you and I are attributing to him.
- newsclues 5y agoYou love the aesthetic and understand the meaning, it’s people who cash in on the style that irks the creator. I’ve always loved the the affordable beauty line: “In an age of affordable beauty, there was something heraldic about his lack of it.”
- after_care 5y agoI’ve come to disregard Gibson’s disdain for deviated works. Disregarding Gibson’s authority and deviating on his art in a way that pleases the creator is very punk in spirit.
- ipnon 5y agoIn his defense, there are few things more punk than disdain for derivatives and veneration for originality and progenitors. Punks are a conservative bunch. They're still playing the same records from 50 years ago like they came out today.
- rainonmoon 5y agoPlenty of punks are making and listening to new music. Your nearest major city undoubtedly has a punk scene in which people play shows, record and put out each other's albums, and otherwise build a community very much focused on the present and future. Are they stuck 50 years in the past or is your idea of them?
- yike321123 5y agoHonestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather than the actual message. While it may be fun to rather generalize and insult others to put on the face of superiority. Maybe think bigger.
- the_af 5y ago> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently used to convey a message; it's not, in general. It's used to convey a trope that's lost most of its barb. All in my opinion, of course. And Gibson's.
- ipnon 5y agoGibson said he came up with Neuromancer by imagining what would happen if Reagan became president for life.
- cehrlich 5y agoAnd he basically has, in spirit.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- drBonkers 5y agoCapitalism's greatest superpower is absorbing all critique and selling it back to consumers as a luxury good.
- the_af 5y agoInsightful observation. Also depressing. Probably why Gibson dislikes this trend.
- obese44 5y agovery insightful, that is 100% your original quote
- ghostDancer 5y agoYou can get it in a t-shirt probably. ;-)
- BlueTemplar 5y agoMark Fisher : "Capitalism is very much like the Thing in John Carpenter’s film of the same name: a monstrous, infinitely plastic entity, capable of metabolizing and absorbing anything with which it comes into contact. Capital, Deleuze and Guattari say, is a 'motley painting of everything that ever was'."
- drBonkers 5y agoI heard it first from Daryl Cooper.
- brimble 5y agoAs in Black Mirror's "Fifteen Million Merits".
- cubano 5y agoNot bad, but I personally think its superpower is always being just the tiniest bit better than everything else...
- 5y ago
- mherdeg 5y agoI liked Paolo Bagciaglupi's "The Calorie Man" (which I read in "Rewired: The Post-Cyberpunk Anthology") as an example of this kind of "if we project today's state of affairs 30 years into the future, what is the dystopia it produces?" line of reasoning. The story is about megacorporations greedily controlling the supply of food via patents on GMO crops in a post-peak-oil society. There's no artificial general intelligence lurking in the electrons to save or doom us, just the consequences of our own choices.
- the_af 5y agoOh, I'm well acquainted with Bacigalupi's work and I think he is not writing mere derivatives, but actually updating the concerns and doing something interesting with them. The aesthetic is completely different as well. I've no idea if Gibson has read Bacigalupi or what he thinks of his work, but I am definitely a fan!
- jrochkind1 5y agoI really recommend Bagciaglupi's "The Wind-Up Girl", which is kind of the novel expanded from The Calorie Man. It is dismal.
- the_af 5y agoDon't forget "Yellow Card Man"! Most of his stories in "Pump Six and Other Stories" are very good. Depressing, but good.
- lsaferite 5y agoI loved that book and the world the author created.
- blaser-waffle 5y agoGreat book. My friend is Thai and said he (Bagciaglupi) couldn't speak the language to save his life, but otherwise liked the book.
- the_af 5y ago
- willis936 5y agoCP2077 appears shallow on the surface. Compared to Deus Ex the gameplay feels shallow. Story wise though... I'm not sure playing as a terrorist who detonated a nuke in a city and rose from the dead to finish the job is well within the "playing it safe" area of current storytelling.
- munk-a 5y agoAnd, honestly, outside of the main story the setting is absolutely dripping with theme and care - buggy the game may be, but poorly written it is not (in most cases - there were definitely some misses). Hell, cyberpsychosis, a pretty plot-minor series of encounters, delves into one of the more interesting considerations in the game. That a fair number of people are unable to handle the implant tech at all and lose their ability to function in a balanced way - each encounter has a harrowing series of notes about the person degrading into insanity and each is just sort of... ignored by most of the people around it and accepted as a cost of technological advancement. I know the devs get a lot of hate, but I think that there is a whole lot of heart and soul poured into that game.
- TranquilMarmot 5y agoI picked it up on sale after the recent 1.5 big huge update and after something like 75 hours, I haven't really encountered any glaring bugs and have loved it. Glad I didn't pick it up at launch otherwise my opinion may have been soured.
- porbelm 5y agoI picked it up at launch and still shoved 120 hours into it, finishing it, before taking a break. I never experienced much more than two or three quest-breaking bugs requiring a reload; lucky I guess. Doing a replay now after 1.5 and the new stuff is good still lotta T-poses though
- mecha_ghidorah 5y agoI remember seeing people complain that CP2077 wasn't punk because you could do jobs for the police and get paid for it... Which to me is actually incredibly punk in message. Sure the character might not be punk, but the suggestion that in the future we will have people basically getting hit jobs from the cops via an app like they were uber drivers is incredibly dystopian and punk in message to me
- jrochkind1 5y agoCurious if someone can find a URL for Gibson saying such things. I've never seen Gibson describing Neuromancer as a critique of Reagonomics or having any particular political agenda. Interested to see it if so! I don't think of Gibson having nearly as much "political" agenda or grounding as some other early "cyberpunk" writer's like Bruce Sterling or Rudy Rucker. (I don't think Gibson himself referred to his work "cyberpunk" or "punk" originally)
- NoraCodes 5y agoHave you read much of Gibson's other work? He's very clear about his attitude towards sci-fi as a way to examine the present day in many of his essays.
- jrochkind1 5y agoYep! Oh for sure, as a way to examine the present! Just his political commitments or agenda, if any, aren't as obvious as some peers. i'm curious for places he's revealed them in interviews!
- kemayo 5y agoI did a cursory search, and there's certainly "What I tried to do was give people a future that is the world of the Reagan ’80s carried five steps forward and the volume turned up 20 clicks" in an article[1] from 1994. [1]: https://ew.com/article/1994/08/26/william-gibson-first-man-cyberspace/ https://ew.com/article/1994/08/26/william-gibson-first-man-c...
- pmoriarty 5y agoThis sounds very hand-wavy, and I wish Gibson was more explicit in drawing the connections. Slums and the dominance of megacorps and the ultra-rich I understand, but what do cyberspace and AI's (two of Neuromancer's more original and iconic themes) have to do with Reagan? Nothing, from what I can tell.
- 5y ago
- dempedempe 5y agoThat's interesting. I guess the two are coming from very different places. Gibson comes from a place of rebellion. The current fascination with cyberpunk comes from a place of nostalgia.
- discardedrefuse 5y agoNeuromancer was a critique of the era that birthed it. Reagan might be gone, but the frameworks cemented into place back then are still the same frameworks we operate under today. Gibson may have unintentionally been predicting the future. As the world further aligns with the cyberpunk dystopia, the mainstreaming of cyberpunk aesthetic is inevitable. I'm reminded of that line in The Matrix when Neo breaks The Oracle's vase, "What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"
- themadturk 5y agoAs Gibson himself has said, science fiction is a commentary on the moment in which it's written, and almost never succeeds in predicting the future. That doesn't mean it can't help shape the future (which I think Neuromancer did, at least a little). But that's a different thing.
- porbelm 5y agoThe fun thing is I read the Sprawl and Bridge trilogies over the past year and oh my effing my how extremely accurate some of his extrapolations turned out to be. So rare and unusual, but post-2016 could not have turned out much different I guess
- jdkee 5y agoSee Adam Curtis' excellent Hypernormalisation. https://vimeo.com/191817381 https://vimeo.com/191817381
- BTCOG 5y agoThis is contrary to numerous interviews where Gibson praises aesthetic and for example, says that Blade Runner spot-on nailed what he was going for with Neuromancer. Gibson all throughout Neuromancer equally himself focuses, almost hyper-focuses on surface textures and visual aesthetic to juxtapose antique forms and purpose with high tech modern materials. It would seemingly be at odds for him to not like aesthetic and neon and city "Sprawl" after going to lengths to directly praise Ridley-Scott's "spot-on" interpretations.
- the_af 5y agoI don't think it's contrary. First, Blade Runner came BEFORE Neuromancer was released, so it cannot have been a derivative, and there weren't any good representations of the aesthetic on screen either; its visuals broke new ground in many senses. Gibson rightly feared that: > "BLADERUNNER came out while I was still writing Neuromancer. I was about a third of the way into the manuscript. When I saw (the first twenty minutes of) BLADERUNNER, I figured my unfinished first novel was sunk, done for. Everyone would assume I’d copped my visual texture from this astonishingly fine-looking film." [source: https://web.archive.org/web/20070926221513/http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/blog/2003_01_01_archive.asp#90199532 https://web.archive.org/web/20070926221513/http://www.willia...] Are there any other visual works of cyberpunk that came after Neuromancer and that Gibson praised? There must have been, but how common were they? Second, I don't think Gibson's main objection was the aesthetic, but rather, that derivative works didn't do anything with it. They just copied, losing the punk spirit and rebelliousness.
- BTCOG 5y agoI think that's a great assessment. Other than being great friends with Bruce Sterling I'm not aware of afterward works considered derivative that he's directly praised. Maybe some Stephenson works and Sterling?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- notahacker 5y agoThis. For example here[1] is an interview in which Gibson waxes lyrical about pop culture, imagery, prose style and selective use of detail, and also says he didn't "have the patience" to flesh out details like the backstory of what was supposed to actually have happened to the US because they'd only detract from the reading enjoyment. He's saying that he was influenced by how cheesy Cold War era blockbusters could imply a lot happened with a few well chosen casual words, not claiming to make a case for a different politics or to channel Brave New World And let's be brutally honest, the politics of Neuromancer isn't really more sophisticated than "counterculture is cool" and a determination to avoid what Gibson sees as right wing tendencies in Golden Age SF. The writing is fantastic, but it's all about imagery and ideas. Even his polemical writing on Singapore and the Golden Age seem more concerned that paternalistic ideas of ideal societies are dull than anything else. Even the most cynically commercial use of cyberpunk cliches embraces the idea that counterculture - or at least 1980s cyberpunk idea of counterculture - is cool [1] http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/gibson_interview.html http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/gibson_interview.html
- ascagnel_ 5y ago> I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the point, staying shallow and forgetting the "message", which was PUNK: a rebellion and a rejection of the mainstream state of affairs. Gibson was a punk writer, and his writing was a critique of Reaganomics and the direction the world was going back then. I'd argue that another game released in 2020 understood the "punk" part of cyberpunk much better than CP2077 -- Umurangi Generation. Instead of giving you a gun, the game gives you a camera, and tells you to go out and document how everyday people are reacting to the end of the world. The game was primarily inspired by the early 2020 brushfires in Australia, while its add-on DLC pack Macro was heavily influenced by the protests following the death of George Floyd, and both heavily criticize how the state misleads, reassures, and generally fails to respond to dire situations. Errant Signal did an excellent deep-dive (and spoiler-filled) video essay on the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctkeq8IpdQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctkeq8IpdQA
- Forgeties79 5y agoThis game looks absolutely fascinating. Getting it immediately - thanks for recommendation!
- ineedasername 5y agoI think the aesthetic, whether Gibson likes it or not, is interesting & compelling enough to stand on its own, outside of any specific or inherent social commentary. Though I agree that as an environment for stories its no longer well suited to commentary on society today. Some of what he envisioned has become mundane parts of everyday life, in some form or another. Others never much materialized. For the former, well, mundane doesn't cut it if you're after edge-walking commentary on society's direction at the intersection of technology and human behavior. Charles Stross's early works came in at tail end of cyberpunk, lets call it the silver age, and to me they read like they're trying to find a way forward for the genre, and he ultimately decided that wasn't the way to go. So he branched out from there, including to near-future sci-fi. This was ultimately a dead end because he kept finding that, no matter how strange the plot, by the time a manuscript was really starting to take its final form he was already proven right by current events. And publishing schedules being what they are, his book wouldn't hit shelves until a year or more later at which point they'd read like derivative commentary on year++ old events. Essentially, his predictions were pretty good, but his expected timeline was far too generous: the future was coming too fast. All of his work is worth reading though, and I think his Laundry Files & Merchant series would appeal to different, somewhat overlapping sets of HN readers. For one of the most interesting mind fck time travel stories, check out his short work Palimpsest.
- RangerScience 5y agoStrongly recommend the Laundry files. Note that they start rougher (hewing very close to the original concept of "grumpy sysadmin in weird circumenstances") but quickly mature into more.
- blacksmith_tb 5y agoPretty sure Mr. Stross is a regular around here. I personally couldn't warm up too much to his Laundry or Merchant Princes books, but Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise are excellent, and Accelrando was also fun.
- sien 5y ago
- api 5y agoI think that's a case of an artist hating their work once it's on the canvas, which is incredibly common.
- the_af 5y agoHmm, I don't think Gibson hates his work. What do you mean?
- cwkoss 5y agoI wonder what Gibson thinks of solarpunk. I think its a very compelling aesthetic, and much more rejecting of societal norms (particularly around consumptive consumerism)
- dleslie 5y agoCyberpunk 2077 receives too much grief for its rejection of the mainstream state of affairs, making it quite punk. IMHO. The crux of the story, the full arc and conclusion of your character, is that you are a nobody who seeks to become an influencer, comes to believe that you have a big role to play in world events, but ultimately even your greatest possible achievements amount to being either inconsequential or the result of manipulations of ever more powerful forces. You start a nobody, and you die a nobody. The game's NPCs spend a fair amount of time reflecting on valuing the relationships of the present and honoring the memory of those lost; even throughout the side quests. (One of my favourites involving a misunderstanding arising from seeking to be accepted and pursuing plastic surgery, only to discover that the partner loves who they are and not what they look like). And yes, there are the pervasive themes of the commodification of the human body, the objectification of not only the physical but the emotional experience as well. Human limbs are bought and sold, whole body replacements are common, memories are recorded and shared, a recording of the end of life is itself a hot commodity. The game is thick with themes that condemn our indifferent, plastic and superficial culture.
- Mountain_Skies 5y agoSorry to gatekeep but corporate produced anything cannot be punk. At most, they can serve as a rent seeker for passing along punk to the masses but that's not even what Cyberpunk 2077 is. This is 100% corporate, focus grouped, committee approved, beige trying too hard to be punk. Which is fine if taken for what it really is but what it really is, which isn't punk.
- dleslie 5y agoTry to gatekeep all you want; but punks failed to defend their anti-corporate credibility and not only tolerated, but embraced corporate appropriation of their culture. They rode out punk's credibility while riding on boards from Zumies, wearing Hot Topic, and listening to Sum 41 . CDPR is about as authentic as you'll find in high-budget video game development; and as I enjoy high-fidelity entertainment, as well as Pondsmith's take on Cyberpunk, I quite enjoyed CP2077.
- indigochill 5y agoIIRC, the Cyberpunk RPG is explicitly all about the aesthetic. I find it obnoxious personally, but on some level I respect that it knows what it wants to be and is that. I do think it's a certain strain of punk, but a different one than the more politically-minded Gibson punk. I suspect you could combine the "vaguely Japanese inspired retrofuturistic aesthetics" with a more modern political critique. To some extent, I feel like the original Deus Ex game is still relevant as it tangles with the corruption of power and how technology enables that process, which is more relevant than ever.
- orev 5y ago> And nothing can be more conformist and anti-punk than lazily copying a now classic aesthetic and doing nothing else with it. In Pattern Recognition, the character Cayce is “allergic” to Tommy Hilfiger clothing because the style is so completely generic. Your comment makes me wonder if that was a commentary on the works derived from his initial vision in the Sprawl trilogy.
- bpiche 5y agoCayce's black bomber jacket and Fruit of the Loom shirts and black Levis make a terrific outfit. The mil spec sneakers in that same series are described with similar care. But beyond mil spec, the whole Blue Ant series is just a beautiful tableau of different fashions and designed objects. Made me really want a Curta.
- aspenmayer 5y ago> In Pattern Recognition, the character Cayce is “allergic” to Tommy Hilfiger clothing because the style is so completely generic. I remember this a bit differently? I thought she wore nondescript de-branded clothing specifically because she had a behavioral/neurological/information processing/sensory overload condition that caused her to have tics and flip out in the presence of excessive visual input. I remember her intentionally choosing this clothing, as it jumped out at me. And I thought she wore Levi’s, not that it matters, though they do have minimal brand motifs compared to some brands. I didn’t finish the book, and it has been a while, so I could well be mistaken or outright wrong. I don’t remember TH being mentioned specifically.
- orev 5y ago> next to a display of Tommy Hilfiger, it's all started to go sideways … Some people ingest a single peanut and their head swells like a basketball. … Tommy Hilfiger does it every time … A mountainside of Tommy coming down in her head This is about an unexpected encounter with these clothes (not wearing them), and it doesn’t sound good to me.
- aspenmayer 5y ago
- npteljes 5y ago>I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. He specifically said this about the game: "The trailer for Cyberpunk 2077 strikes me as GTA skinned-over with a generic 80s retro-future, but hey, that's just me." https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1005958197654351872 https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1005958197654351872
- lobocinza 5y agoThen someone criticized him (on Twitter) for not understanding cyberpunk. :)
- bpiche 5y agoMaybe it was Action Button who put it best when he said Cyberpunk 2077 is the gamer chair of cyberpunk, and I'm paraphrasing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnBKX_vdYQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnBKX_vdYQI
- dvngnt_ 5y ago2077 is rebellion though. he never even played the game