7 ms·

> Call into the school's board meeting during public comment, and make it loud and clear that the school is installing spyware on students' Chromebooks. Share y

by n8cpdx 5y ago

> Call into the school's board meeting during public comment, and make it loud and clear that the school is installing spyware on students' Chromebooks. Share your technical credentials and the method by which you found this. Just some comments on the political aspect of this, since the HN crowd tends to not be so good at that part: - Following this advice and using a tone that even resembles the tone of the comment or the original post will make you look/sound crazy. School boards (government boards in general) are used to seeing vocal, crazy people and are good at not taking crazy people seriously. - “spyware” is not something non-technical understand. Just invoking spyware is going to make people think you’re crazy, not motivate them to fix the problem. - Normal people do understand things like ownership and consent (approximately, anyway). It might be better to highlight the fact that you own the laptop, your child cannot possibly consent to such monitoring/software being installed, and that you weren’t notified. - Normal people understand things like subscription costs - why should the school district be paying a third-party service to monitor a device that they don’t manage. By installing management software on your child’s device, are they assuming ownership and _liability_ for how that device is used outside of school? - The whole chromebook=spyware doesn’t really make sense unless the only comparison is Linux; and if your kid doesn’t understand privacy issues on a chromebook, they definitely won’t have a good time with Linux. The IT department could have just as easily installed similar spyware for Windows or macOS. Realistically what probably happened here is they have slightly clueless people who installed standard-issue software without thinking to check if the student actually owned the chromebook, because they probably dealt with a hundred other District-issued devices that day. When you run into that kind of bad outcome from human frailty, it is better to treat it as such rather than complain to the board that the sky is falling.

chaostheory 5y ago
Use examples that help non-technical parents understand e.g. anonymous spyware employees can now potentially spy on your children while they’re getting dressed.
quadrifoliate 5y ago
I agree one hundred percent with this commenter. They are absolutely right – don't use the tone that I'm using on HN! I did not structure my HN comment from the point of view of how to present it for public comment; and the tone if used verbatim will mark you down as "tinfoil hat crazy person who we should ignore", as the parent correctly points out. Definitely don't use the term "spyware". Try to assume the persona of a reasonable, slightly conservative, and concerned person who is worried about data privacy why public money is being spent on subscriptions to companies who collect a lot of it, but are not local or accountable. Highlight that you understand that choices are difficult, but that the school needs to do better and be more accountable to parents and students, especially in an age where personal data has become so important.
- kqr 5y ago
  Even better, contact other parents ahead of time and see if others are concerned. Expand your group of concerned people by following their natural networks and start collaborating on a joint proposal. Ideally you can collectively find a workaround (start by emailing IT, as someone else suggested, if that doesn't work, maybe schedule a meeting with someone more influential -- either way, the aggregate wisdom of your parent group will come up with more creative solutions than us at HN). Once you have a solution, craft a flyer and send to all parents: "This is what we saw as a problem, and this is what we did about it. Contact us if you want help." If all else fails, stand up together in the board meeting. Democracy does not require permission.
wrycoder 5y ago
> When you run into that kind of bad outcome from human frailty, it is better to treat it as such I take it, then that, you would not bother to do anything about the descent down the slope to uniformity controlled by MAMAA?
Extropy_ 5y ago
Totally agree with you in every way except your last point. IIRC, the administrators of a Google Workspace domain have almost complete control of the accounts created under it. For example, they're able to make sure that each account comes with preset Chrome Web Store extensions or they can limit or completely disable your control over your account. So, unless the school board locked down the Chromebook itself, (which I don't think they can unless they actually own it) these restrictions and the spyware would've been automatically "installed" on OP's kid's account and shouldn't be active/installed when you're logged into a privately owned Google account. All in all, the way Chromebooks work is unconventional and sometimes very annoying.
- ironchef 5y ago
  If I recall, the language that's used in situations like these is something along the lines of "Personal electronic devices will be governed under this policy when such devices are attached to the CPS network." So .. it's a "as long as you're going to connect to the CPS controlled network / resources, you must have software protections / controls in place".
  - dTal 5y ago
    Except it sounds like the spyware is still installed even if they log in with their personal account? The isolation principle is violated. It's a huge security hole.
car_analogy 5y ago
> “spyware” is not something non-technical understand. Just invoking spyware is going to make people think you’re crazy, not motivate them to fix the problem. It's also vague. Make sure parents know exactly what data is being gathered, and who gets it. And point out that this is being kept hidden from both children and parents - if the spying is above-board, then why doesn't the device give a big "All your chat messages and internet activity is being monitored by XYZ, even outside school hours" notice at log-in? Was the existence and extent of this spying communicated in any clear way, by the software or by the school, or buried deep in a click-through agreement?
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Following this advice and using a tone that even resembles the tone of the comment or the original post will make you look/sound crazy. Thank you. Also, please ignore every comment in this thread suggesting you lawyer up or go to small claims court. The laptop isn't ruined and can be reset whenever the OP wants (as they already established). If you go in guns blazing to the school board, the school is going to go into full defensive mode. Once you've established yourself as the aggressive parent with an axe to grind, they're not going to be interested at all in working with you. If you actually want to get anywhere with this, start with a friendly e-mail to the school's IT staff. Ask them how your child can do their schoolwork without putting the laptop under school control. If you go in with a reasonable approach, you might get a sympathetic IT person who will walk you through the situation and explain the options. > Realistically what probably happened here is they have slightly clueless people who installed standard-issue software without thinking to check if the student actually owned the chromebook That would be my first assumption. I would even guess that they aren't keen on having yet another license tied up on a student's device somewhere. Don't immediately rush to assumptions of malicious intent, don't think that making a scene at a school board event will further your goals, and definitely don't take any of the suggestions here to lawyer up or otherwise waste a lot of time and money on a legal fight that you will surely lose.
- docmars 5y ago
  > If you go in guns blazing to the school board, the school is going to go into full defensive mode. Once you've established yourself as the aggressive parent with an axe to grind, they're not going to be interested at all in working with you. Too bad! They can be voted out, or face lawsuits if a heated attitude is too much for them that they feel the need to ignore valid feedback regardless of the emotions involved. I've heard the same argument used for angry minority communities in the past, so this very much applies here as well. Heated rhetoric school boards are seeing today are reminiscent of a body that isn't listening.
  - Scarblac 5y ago
    They can't be voted out by you alone though. And what he wrote about the school is just as true for the majority of other parents.
zulban 5y ago
Brilliantly written feedback, I hope folks take it to heart.
Waterluvian 5y ago
I have a huge smile reading this comment. Thank you. Far too often the tech community gets totally lost in their own world. A world that 99% of people don’t inhabit.
williamsmj 5y ago
> Following this advice and using a tone that even resembles the tone of the comment or the original post will make you look/sound crazy. School boards (government boards in general) are used to seeing vocal, crazy people and are good at not taking crazy people seriously. I agree with the general point of your comment but this is simply not true any more. I’m not sure it was ever true, but recent coverage of school boards and environmental review public consultation throughout the United States demonstrates that it certainly isn’t true in 2022.
mathattack 5y ago
The other thing is add is the only way to impact the school system is to create an alternative (private or charter) or get your own people on the school board. Or if you’re really rich, hire a lawyer, but that’s kind of an %sshole move because then the school district has to either cave to everyone hiring a lawyer, or fire the music teacher to pay for legal defense.
- treeman79 5y ago
  School choice would do a lot of get schools to compete and be the best possible. Charter schools is something we use now. Hardly perfect but it’s a lot nicer.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    Charter schools leave a lot of kids behind, especially if they have special needs.
    - mathattack 5y ago
      Depends on the charter school. In New York the Special Ed kids at Success Academy outperform Gen Ed kids citywide.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>- “spyware” is not something non-technical understand. Just invoking spyware is going to make people think you’re crazy, not motivate them to fix the problem. Even if you say the school is installing stuff that allows them to monitor your child instead of using the term 'spyware' that may not be too compelling, I suppose a lot of parents will reflexively think - so, that's the school's job. Thus the need to focus on how these things have been misused in the past, maybe say it's their job to monitor your child during school hours, but after school hours it's your job. Also note how you bought the computer, it is your property, you can use it how you wish, if they want it to be otherwise they should buy the computers for children.
alexb_ 5y ago
The biggest thing is that if you are calling to complain, then you will IMMEDIATELY be discredited. They don't have any reason to keep you happy, so complaints mean absolutely nothing. You cannot come with complaints - you must come with a solution, already prepared, such that it is easier for them to implement the solution than to not. People will always, 100% of the time, take the path of least resistance - actually make the path not resistant at all and it's the only way you can convince anyone to do anything.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  It seems like the path of least resistance here is “only use school equipment to access school accounts”, create the kid a non-school Google account, and only use non-school accounts (his and others) on the private Chromebook. I find it annoying but acceptable that my work account doesn’t function on my non-work computer.
  - yakak 5y ago
    I find the behavior as implemented entirely unacceptable. My work has Google apps and that caused a Chromebook I was using to immediately jump to managed by the company as soon as I logged in with my work account despite having no intranet/etc and no one intentionally configuring anything. It would never allow me to do regular processes for the chromebook's management even after full resets. The whole point of a restricted boot environment is to have multi user with proper separation where one user can't accidentally compromise the system. If an org is still unhappy mixing with other accounts or being on user provided hardware they should be able to block that. Stealing hardware and implementing anti-theft rules that should apply to verified org provided hardware on first login is a crime. Years ago, I debated Chromebooks as a solution for older relatives. Now I shudder to think what would have happened if I had and one of their nieces/nephews or grandkids had something to show them from school.
  - birdman3131 5y ago
    Having seen the absolutely atrocious screens in the school furnished chromebooks I half believe Vtech put higher res screens in their 90's kids laptops.
bongoman37 5y ago
kkfx 5y ago
Not the OP but: IME, in EU, being tough, not vocal, and being threatening legal actions with serious bases works very well, most institutions know they have skeletons in their wardrobe and they do not like to face someone who is not crying but very decided to hit with all legal means, especially if there are also ideological motivations. Spyware is a very well generally understood terms: someone breach someone else privacy deliberately, witch means complaint, court and uncertain results for those who decide to spy. Surveillance capitalism is ignored by most, but known as evil so once someone talk about that pointing out the finger to a school, not a hyper-giant player, people arise likely. They imaging in their mind a naked child spied via the webcam etc in an instant. While they do normally not understand nothing about ownership and consent on "digital stuff". Oh, BTW what "realistically happen" have exactly zero meaning: the possibility of doing so on not managed computers means a built-in RCE so big that such products must not be on the market. Remote control of desktops must be deployed on purpose not came pre-installed from factories because anyone can use a pre-installed system in place. If that's true at least in EU, there is room for legal action against the OEM, not only the school.
lodovic 5y ago
Bring this concern to the school board: Say your child is making homework all alone, in their room, total privacy. Is it true that the monitoring software can at that moment look at the webcam and listen in to the microphone's audio? If no consent was given, that should be pretty bad for the school board.
yardie 5y ago
> The IT department could have just as easily installed similar spyware for Windows or macOS. Just a nitpick here, yes school IT could do a remote install of spyware if the user was privileged and agreed to it. But a privileged user could also uninstall it. Which is not the case here. In my experience with MDMs the school has to physically have the laptop to install a permanent MDM or purchase the laptop and provision through an activation portal. My experience has been Intune Autopilot and ABM. Google Work MDMs was notorious for remotely wiping personal devices which is why I never allow work to install MDMs on my personal items.
BizarroLand 5y ago
I've worked in IT support and had issues with parents who let their children use their work computers for school having the chrome browser locked down by the school. The only fix that worked was exporting the logins and passwords, deleting them from Chrome, and then reinstalling chrome with a different login. I don't want my coworkers work data in the hands of their children's schools' IT dept, and I've let them know that this can count as a data breach (fortunately, so far none of them have been privy to any important data). Suffice it to say, don't let your kids use your work laptops, and don't log into your child's school accounts on your work computer. This should be really obvious but apparently it is not.

by n8cpdx 5y ago

chaostheory 5y ago

Use examples that help non-technical parents understand e.g. anonymous spyware employees can now potentially spy on your children while they’re getting dressed.

quadrifoliate 5y ago

I agree one hundred percent with this commenter. They are absolutely right – don't use the tone that I'm using on HN! I did not structure my HN comment from the point of view of how to present it for public comment; and the tone if used verbatim will mark you down as "tinfoil hat crazy person who we should ignore", as the parent correctly points out. Definitely don't use the term "spyware". Try to assume the persona of a reasonable, slightly conservative, and concerned person who is worried about data privacy why public money is being spent on subscriptions to companies who collect a lot of it, but are not local or accountable. Highlight that you understand that choices are difficult, but that the school needs to do better and be more accountable to parents and students, especially in an age where personal data has become so important.

kqr 5y ago
Even better, contact other parents ahead of time and see if others are concerned. Expand your group of concerned people by following their natural networks and start collaborating on a joint proposal. Ideally you can collectively find a workaround (start by emailing IT, as someone else suggested, if that doesn't work, maybe schedule a meeting with someone more influential -- either way, the aggregate wisdom of your parent group will come up with more creative solutions than us at HN). Once you have a solution, craft a flyer and send to all parents: "This is what we saw as a problem, and this is what we did about it. Contact us if you want help." If all else fails, stand up together in the board meeting. Democracy does not require permission.

wrycoder 5y ago

> When you run into that kind of bad outcome from human frailty, it is better to treat it as such I take it, then that, you would not bother to do anything about the descent down the slope to uniformity controlled by MAMAA?

Extropy_ 5y ago

Totally agree with you in every way except your last point. IIRC, the administrators of a Google Workspace domain have almost complete control of the accounts created under it. For example, they're able to make sure that each account comes with preset Chrome Web Store extensions or they can limit or completely disable your control over your account. So, unless the school board locked down the Chromebook itself, (which I don't think they can unless they actually own it) these restrictions and the spyware would've been automatically "installed" on OP's kid's account and shouldn't be active/installed when you're logged into a privately owned Google account. All in all, the way Chromebooks work is unconventional and sometimes very annoying.

ironchef 5y ago
If I recall, the language that's used in situations like these is something along the lines of "Personal electronic devices will be governed under this policy when such devices are attached to the CPS network." So .. it's a "as long as you're going to connect to the CPS controlled network / resources, you must have software protections / controls in place".
- dTal 5y ago
  Except it sounds like the spyware is still installed even if they log in with their personal account? The isolation principle is violated. It's a huge security hole.

car_analogy 5y ago

> “spyware” is not something non-technical understand. Just invoking spyware is going to make people think you’re crazy, not motivate them to fix the problem. It's also vague. Make sure parents know exactly what data is being gathered, and who gets it. And point out that this is being kept hidden from both children and parents - if the spying is above-board, then why doesn't the device give a big "All your chat messages and internet activity is being monitored by XYZ, even outside school hours" notice at log-in? Was the existence and extent of this spying communicated in any clear way, by the software or by the school, or buried deep in a click-through agreement?

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Following this advice and using a tone that even resembles the tone of the comment or the original post will make you look/sound crazy. Thank you. Also, please ignore every comment in this thread suggesting you lawyer up or go to small claims court. The laptop isn't ruined and can be reset whenever the OP wants (as they already established). If you go in guns blazing to the school board, the school is going to go into full defensive mode. Once you've established yourself as the aggressive parent with an axe to grind, they're not going to be interested at all in working with you. If you actually want to get anywhere with this, start with a friendly e-mail to the school's IT staff. Ask them how your child can do their schoolwork without putting the laptop under school control. If you go in with a reasonable approach, you might get a sympathetic IT person who will walk you through the situation and explain the options. > Realistically what probably happened here is they have slightly clueless people who installed standard-issue software without thinking to check if the student actually owned the chromebook That would be my first assumption. I would even guess that they aren't keen on having yet another license tied up on a student's device somewhere. Don't immediately rush to assumptions of malicious intent, don't think that making a scene at a school board event will further your goals, and definitely don't take any of the suggestions here to lawyer up or otherwise waste a lot of time and money on a legal fight that you will surely lose.

docmars 5y ago
> If you go in guns blazing to the school board, the school is going to go into full defensive mode. Once you've established yourself as the aggressive parent with an axe to grind, they're not going to be interested at all in working with you. Too bad! They can be voted out, or face lawsuits if a heated attitude is too much for them that they feel the need to ignore valid feedback regardless of the emotions involved. I've heard the same argument used for angry minority communities in the past, so this very much applies here as well. Heated rhetoric school boards are seeing today are reminiscent of a body that isn't listening.
- Scarblac 5y ago
  They can't be voted out by you alone though. And what he wrote about the school is just as true for the majority of other parents.

zulban 5y ago

Brilliantly written feedback, I hope folks take it to heart.

Waterluvian 5y ago

I have a huge smile reading this comment. Thank you. Far too often the tech community gets totally lost in their own world. A world that 99% of people don’t inhabit.

williamsmj 5y ago

> Following this advice and using a tone that even resembles the tone of the comment or the original post will make you look/sound crazy. School boards (government boards in general) are used to seeing vocal, crazy people and are good at not taking crazy people seriously. I agree with the general point of your comment but this is simply not true any more. I’m not sure it was ever true, but recent coverage of school boards and environmental review public consultation throughout the United States demonstrates that it certainly isn’t true in 2022.

mathattack 5y ago

The other thing is add is the only way to impact the school system is to create an alternative (private or charter) or get your own people on the school board. Or if you’re really rich, hire a lawyer, but that’s kind of an %sshole move because then the school district has to either cave to everyone hiring a lawyer, or fire the music teacher to pay for legal defense.

treeman79 5y ago
School choice would do a lot of get schools to compete and be the best possible. Charter schools is something we use now. Hardly perfect but it’s a lot nicer.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  Charter schools leave a lot of kids behind, especially if they have special needs.
  - mathattack 5y ago
    Depends on the charter school. In New York the Special Ed kids at Success Academy outperform Gen Ed kids citywide.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>- “spyware” is not something non-technical understand. Just invoking spyware is going to make people think you’re crazy, not motivate them to fix the problem. Even if you say the school is installing stuff that allows them to monitor your child instead of using the term 'spyware' that may not be too compelling, I suppose a lot of parents will reflexively think - so, that's the school's job. Thus the need to focus on how these things have been misused in the past, maybe say it's their job to monitor your child during school hours, but after school hours it's your job. Also note how you bought the computer, it is your property, you can use it how you wish, if they want it to be otherwise they should buy the computers for children.

alexb_ 5y ago

The biggest thing is that if you are calling to complain, then you will IMMEDIATELY be discredited. They don't have any reason to keep you happy, so complaints mean absolutely nothing. You cannot come with complaints - you must come with a solution, already prepared, such that it is easier for them to implement the solution than to not. People will always, 100% of the time, take the path of least resistance - actually make the path not resistant at all and it's the only way you can convince anyone to do anything.

sokoloff 5y ago
It seems like the path of least resistance here is “only use school equipment to access school accounts”, create the kid a non-school Google account, and only use non-school accounts (his and others) on the private Chromebook. I find it annoying but acceptable that my work account doesn’t function on my non-work computer.
- yakak 5y ago
  I find the behavior as implemented entirely unacceptable. My work has Google apps and that caused a Chromebook I was using to immediately jump to managed by the company as soon as I logged in with my work account despite having no intranet/etc and no one intentionally configuring anything. It would never allow me to do regular processes for the chromebook's management even after full resets. The whole point of a restricted boot environment is to have multi user with proper separation where one user can't accidentally compromise the system. If an org is still unhappy mixing with other accounts or being on user provided hardware they should be able to block that. Stealing hardware and implementing anti-theft rules that should apply to verified org provided hardware on first login is a crime. Years ago, I debated Chromebooks as a solution for older relatives. Now I shudder to think what would have happened if I had and one of their nieces/nephews or grandkids had something to show them from school.
- birdman3131 5y ago
  Having seen the absolutely atrocious screens in the school furnished chromebooks I half believe Vtech put higher res screens in their 90's kids laptops.

bongoman37 5y ago

kkfx 5y ago

Not the OP but: IME, in EU, being tough, not vocal, and being threatening legal actions with serious bases works very well, most institutions know they have skeletons in their wardrobe and they do not like to face someone who is not crying but very decided to hit with all legal means, especially if there are also ideological motivations. Spyware is a very well generally understood terms: someone breach someone else privacy deliberately, witch means complaint, court and uncertain results for those who decide to spy. Surveillance capitalism is ignored by most, but known as evil so once someone talk about that pointing out the finger to a school, not a hyper-giant player, people arise likely. They imaging in their mind a naked child spied via the webcam etc in an instant. While they do normally not understand nothing about ownership and consent on "digital stuff". Oh, BTW what "realistically happen" have exactly zero meaning: the possibility of doing so on not managed computers means a built-in RCE so big that such products must not be on the market. Remote control of desktops must be deployed on purpose not came pre-installed from factories because anyone can use a pre-installed system in place. If that's true at least in EU, there is room for legal action against the OEM, not only the school.

lodovic 5y ago

Bring this concern to the school board: Say your child is making homework all alone, in their room, total privacy. Is it true that the monitoring software can at that moment look at the webcam and listen in to the microphone's audio? If no consent was given, that should be pretty bad for the school board.

yardie 5y ago

> The IT department could have just as easily installed similar spyware for Windows or macOS. Just a nitpick here, yes school IT could do a remote install of spyware if the user was privileged and agreed to it. But a privileged user could also uninstall it. Which is not the case here. In my experience with MDMs the school has to physically have the laptop to install a permanent MDM or purchase the laptop and provision through an activation portal. My experience has been Intune Autopilot and ABM. Google Work MDMs was notorious for remotely wiping personal devices which is why I never allow work to install MDMs on my personal items.

BizarroLand 5y ago

I've worked in IT support and had issues with parents who let their children use their work computers for school having the chrome browser locked down by the school. The only fix that worked was exporting the logins and passwords, deleting them from Chrome, and then reinstalling chrome with a different login. I don't want my coworkers work data in the hands of their children's schools' IT dept, and I've let them know that this can count as a data breach (fortunately, so far none of them have been privy to any important data). Suffice it to say, don't let your kids use your work laptops, and don't log into your child's school accounts on your work computer. This should be really obvious but apparently it is not.