3 ms·

It's rare that survivorship bias gets to be used quite so literally. Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died.

It's rare that survivorship bias gets to be used quite so literally. Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died. The military as a class on-ramp disproportionately harms the poor, and ethically that's wrong. It's almost literally a lottery where you're gambling your life in exchange for basic needs.

dogman144 5y ago
Is that wrong-ness the responsibility of the military, or that of our govt/"society" not bothering to offer anything else as capable?
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  It's the responsibility of the government and by extension, the military. I suppose you could blame society at-large because we elect our representatives, but the majority of Americans already support single-payer healthcare and free or reduced college tuition. It's disturbing to me that it's normal to concentrate efforts on recruiting poor teenagers to fight wars. The focus on the poor also has the effect of disproportionately impacting minorities. Even if you survive, over the past decade hundreds of thousands of veterans have ended up with PTSD and even then they're left to fight for proper treatment under the VA. The VA has been failing veterans for decades and in some cases causes additional harm, including using experimental and ineffective treatment for covid while under their care (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7276049/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7276049/).
  - dogman144 5y ago
    Guess I'm unclear what policy you think the military could do. Not recruit?
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      Specifically abandon recruiting methods that target the poor would be a start.
      - dogman144 5y ago
        unless you know recruiters personally and have more than an anecdotal example or policy to share, that specific targeting, especially in terms of a policy, doesn't happen but yes recruiters will go to the high schools in poor areas.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Americans may claim that they support healthcare or education reform in the abstract, but they don't actually vote that way. Most people aren't willing to voluntarily pay higher taxes or cut other programs in order to actually implement those policies. I'd like the government to give me all sorts of stuff for free as long as someone else is paying.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      We're all already paying for it through health insurance companies, who are siphoning off huge profits. Unless you're living off-grid the government already gives you mountains of "free" stuff paid for by taxes! It's an enormously long list of utilities and services that contains everything from fire departments to food safety. Mostly things that shouldn't be profit centers.
jmyeet 5y ago
> Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died. What are you referring to here? 300,000 is a specific number and you qualify it with "because their loved ones died". Let's assume you're talking about active military deaths, which are less than 100,000 since 1945 [1], the vast majority of which is Vietnam and Korea. Up until the Vietnam War, the draft was a significant factor. That's not really a factor because you have no control over it. You'll also note that my comment was specifically about the Air Force Guard and Reserve. Your chances of getting deployed to a war zone and dying are incredibly low and so many roles aren't active combat anyway. Unlike active service you enlist ofr a particular job. If you sign up to do logistics in Ohio. your risks are pretty low. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt...
nradov 5y ago
The military mostly recruits from the middle class now. Unfortunately, poor people often can't meet the eligibility requirements due to medical problems (especially obesity), poor fitness, criminal record, history of drug use, lack of a high school diploma, or low test scores. Of course there are exceptions but relatively few. The modern military is pretty selective in whom they take. Many years ago my uncle got in minor trouble with the law as a young man. The judge gave him a choice: join the Navy or go to jail. The Navy worked out pretty well for him, but today he probably wouldn't even have that option to get his life back on track.

dogman144 5y ago

Is that wrong-ness the responsibility of the military, or that of our govt/"society" not bothering to offer anything else as capable?

micromacrofoot 5y ago
It's the responsibility of the government and by extension, the military. I suppose you could blame society at-large because we elect our representatives, but the majority of Americans already support single-payer healthcare and free or reduced college tuition. It's disturbing to me that it's normal to concentrate efforts on recruiting poor teenagers to fight wars. The focus on the poor also has the effect of disproportionately impacting minorities. Even if you survive, over the past decade hundreds of thousands of veterans have ended up with PTSD and even then they're left to fight for proper treatment under the VA. The VA has been failing veterans for decades and in some cases causes additional harm, including using experimental and ineffective treatment for covid while under their care (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7276049/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7276049/).
- dogman144 5y ago
  Guess I'm unclear what policy you think the military could do. Not recruit?
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    Specifically abandon recruiting methods that target the poor would be a start.
    - dogman144 5y ago
      unless you know recruiters personally and have more than an anecdotal example or policy to share, that specific targeting, especially in terms of a policy, doesn't happen but yes recruiters will go to the high schools in poor areas.
- nradov 5y ago
  Americans may claim that they support healthcare or education reform in the abstract, but they don't actually vote that way. Most people aren't willing to voluntarily pay higher taxes or cut other programs in order to actually implement those policies. I'd like the government to give me all sorts of stuff for free as long as someone else is paying.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    We're all already paying for it through health insurance companies, who are siphoning off huge profits. Unless you're living off-grid the government already gives you mountains of "free" stuff paid for by taxes! It's an enormously long list of utilities and services that contains everything from fire departments to food safety. Mostly things that shouldn't be profit centers.

jmyeet 5y ago

> Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died. What are you referring to here? 300,000 is a specific number and you qualify it with "because their loved ones died". Let's assume you're talking about active military deaths, which are less than 100,000 since 1945 [1], the vast majority of which is Vietnam and Korea. Up until the Vietnam War, the draft was a significant factor. That's not really a factor because you have no control over it. You'll also note that my comment was specifically about the Air Force Guard and Reserve. Your chances of getting deployed to a war zone and dying are incredibly low and so many roles aren't active combat anyway. Unlike active service you enlist ofr a particular job. If you sign up to do logistics in Ohio. your risks are pretty low. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt...

nradov 5y ago

The military mostly recruits from the middle class now. Unfortunately, poor people often can't meet the eligibility requirements due to medical problems (especially obesity), poor fitness, criminal record, history of drug use, lack of a high school diploma, or low test scores. Of course there are exceptions but relatively few. The modern military is pretty selective in whom they take. Many years ago my uncle got in minor trouble with the law as a young man. The judge gave him a choice: join the Navy or go to jail. The Navy worked out pretty well for him, but today he probably wouldn't even have that option to get his life back on track.