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Yeah. I’ve grown up starkly anti military due to the kinds of fights the American military has fought in my lifetime. It’s been evil. Plain and simple. And yet,

Yeah. I’ve grown up starkly anti military due to the kinds of fights the American military has fought in my lifetime. It’s been evil. Plain and simple. And yet, I’m glad we have a strong military given happenings in Ukraine. I would strongly support putting boots on the ground. To have the training necessary to join the volunteer defense forces in Ukraine or something similar resonates as a valuable, important skill. Hard to mix such feelings.

brandmeyer 5y ago
In the US, the military doesn't choose the targets. Elected civilians do. The way to square those feelings is to direct them at the people who give the top-level orders, and the rhetoric used to support those orders to the public. There is an entire branch of ethics and philosophy dedicated to the topic: Just War Theory. The US interventions in Serbia and Kuwait were both well-justified in my eyes.
- Analemma_ 5y ago
  You're not responding to the point the OP is making though. They (and I) are aware that the military isn't making these decisions, and I'm not blaming the military for them. But who gets the blame isn't the question being asked here, it's whether we as individuals should join, and for that the question of blame is irrelevant. I would also serve if there was some kind of guarantee that I would only see deployment in self-defense or against another Hitler. But what I absolutely will not do is be cannon fodder in another imperialist war like Iraq or Afghanistan, and part of serving in the military means you don't get any choice in the matter. So I don't join.
nradov 5y ago
Putting American military boots on the ground in Ukraine would likely escalate to WW3.
- formvoltron 5y ago
  So says Putin. So you better give him what he wants.
  - throwaway743 5y ago
    So mutual assured destruction is what you're advocating for? That's some big brain shit
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
      Ukraine has been attacking targets inside Russia, why haven't they been nuked yet?
      - throwaway743 5y ago
        Because they don't have nukes. Once a nuclear armed power faces another, then you'll likely have MAD.
  - joshsyn 5y ago
- oneoff786 5y ago
  Bring it motherfucker Edit: but bravado aside, I think no, it would not. I think Russia would just back down. If they were willing to escalate, I think we would have seen a nuke in kyiv by now Edit edit: and it is worth it to show we are willing to stand up for such things. We cannot afford to roll over to anyone with nukes
  - nradov 5y ago
    Russians would likely shoot at US forces in Ukraine. Then what? I sympathize with the Ukrainian people but Ukraine is not a US treaty ally. If you're brave enough, the Ukrainian military is accepting volunteers. Other foreigners have already enlisted. Go join them. And I'm not being snarky: if you really believe in the cause then I sincerely think you should do something about it.
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      The United States is capable of getting involved even if Ukraine is not a treaty ally. I am stating a geopolitical policy preference. Yes, that involves some US soldiers dying.
      - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
        It doesn't just involve US soldiers dying, it probably means some cities turned to cinders. There's a line you cannot cross, and wasn't crossed in the entire cold war as bitter as things got-- and that is NATO troops on Russian soil or vice versa.
        oneoff786 5y ago
        Ukraine is not Russian soil I understand the risks
      - refurb 5y ago
        How very brave of you to offer a sacrifice you won’t have to pay. You must be young. The same reason for going to war were used back for Iraq (both of them).
seti0Cha 5y ago
Were you around for the buildup to the second gulf war? The rhetoric against Saddam Hussein was not terribly different in tone than that against Putin. People were similarly outraged and many people wanted us to invade because of all the awful things he did, e.g. his treatment of the Kurds. In fact, pretty much all the major conflicts that have happened in my lifetime have been accompanied by a call to action based on moral outrage. I don't mean to offend, but it seems to me it's people such as yourself who have abetted our participation in so many conflicts, and precious few have been better for our involvement.
- oneoff786 5y ago
  Media literacy seems like it was a lot worse back then. I’m not convinced I would ever support the invasion of another country. I’m not supporting the invasion of Russia. I’m supporting the defense of Ukraine.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    I'm fully on board in supporting Ukraine, but the quality of the coverage is no better. I don't often watch TV, particularly American TV, but I was down at a friends recently and he had CNN on and I was like... yep, same old same old, just as bad as it was in the early 2000s. Sensationalistic, simplistic, and highly biased. Beats the Fox News bias, but still bias. But, I'm neither liberal or conservative. I'm a socialist, and mainstream politics is pretty alien to me on both "sides."
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      As much as people want to shit on social media echo chambers, they pale in comparison to television news. Television news is just pathetic. Understanding this is step one of media literacy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago

brandmeyer 5y ago

In the US, the military doesn't choose the targets. Elected civilians do. The way to square those feelings is to direct them at the people who give the top-level orders, and the rhetoric used to support those orders to the public. There is an entire branch of ethics and philosophy dedicated to the topic: Just War Theory. The US interventions in Serbia and Kuwait were both well-justified in my eyes.

Analemma_ 5y ago
You're not responding to the point the OP is making though. They (and I) are aware that the military isn't making these decisions, and I'm not blaming the military for them. But who gets the blame isn't the question being asked here, it's whether we as individuals should join, and for that the question of blame is irrelevant. I would also serve if there was some kind of guarantee that I would only see deployment in self-defense or against another Hitler. But what I absolutely will not do is be cannon fodder in another imperialist war like Iraq or Afghanistan, and part of serving in the military means you don't get any choice in the matter. So I don't join.

nradov 5y ago

Putting American military boots on the ground in Ukraine would likely escalate to WW3.

formvoltron 5y ago
So says Putin. So you better give him what he wants.
- throwaway743 5y ago
  So mutual assured destruction is what you're advocating for? That's some big brain shit
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
    Ukraine has been attacking targets inside Russia, why haven't they been nuked yet?
    - throwaway743 5y ago
      Because they don't have nukes. Once a nuclear armed power faces another, then you'll likely have MAD.
- joshsyn 5y ago
oneoff786 5y ago
Bring it motherfucker Edit: but bravado aside, I think no, it would not. I think Russia would just back down. If they were willing to escalate, I think we would have seen a nuke in kyiv by now Edit edit: and it is worth it to show we are willing to stand up for such things. We cannot afford to roll over to anyone with nukes
- nradov 5y ago
  Russians would likely shoot at US forces in Ukraine. Then what? I sympathize with the Ukrainian people but Ukraine is not a US treaty ally. If you're brave enough, the Ukrainian military is accepting volunteers. Other foreigners have already enlisted. Go join them. And I'm not being snarky: if you really believe in the cause then I sincerely think you should do something about it.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    The United States is capable of getting involved even if Ukraine is not a treaty ally. I am stating a geopolitical policy preference. Yes, that involves some US soldiers dying.
    - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
      It doesn't just involve US soldiers dying, it probably means some cities turned to cinders. There's a line you cannot cross, and wasn't crossed in the entire cold war as bitter as things got-- and that is NATO troops on Russian soil or vice versa.
      - oneoff786 5y ago
        Ukraine is not Russian soil I understand the risks
    - refurb 5y ago
      How very brave of you to offer a sacrifice you won’t have to pay. You must be young. The same reason for going to war were used back for Iraq (both of them).

seti0Cha 5y ago

Were you around for the buildup to the second gulf war? The rhetoric against Saddam Hussein was not terribly different in tone than that against Putin. People were similarly outraged and many people wanted us to invade because of all the awful things he did, e.g. his treatment of the Kurds. In fact, pretty much all the major conflicts that have happened in my lifetime have been accompanied by a call to action based on moral outrage. I don't mean to offend, but it seems to me it's people such as yourself who have abetted our participation in so many conflicts, and precious few have been better for our involvement.

oneoff786 5y ago
Media literacy seems like it was a lot worse back then. I’m not convinced I would ever support the invasion of another country. I’m not supporting the invasion of Russia. I’m supporting the defense of Ukraine.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  I'm fully on board in supporting Ukraine, but the quality of the coverage is no better. I don't often watch TV, particularly American TV, but I was down at a friends recently and he had CNN on and I was like... yep, same old same old, just as bad as it was in the early 2000s. Sensationalistic, simplistic, and highly biased. Beats the Fox News bias, but still bias. But, I'm neither liberal or conservative. I'm a socialist, and mainstream politics is pretty alien to me on both "sides."
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    As much as people want to shit on social media echo chambers, they pale in comparison to television news. Television news is just pathetic. Understanding this is step one of media literacy.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cmrdporcupine 5y ago