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>And sometimes there doesn't exist a way to communicate your true feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature and communicating truthfully cannot s

by jonahx 5y ago

>And sometimes there doesn't exist a way to communicate your true feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature and communicating truthfully cannot solve this problem. That's because it's not a problem. The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. In both cases the solution is not to avoid the feelings, but to become stronger.

thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
>The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. My reading of the scenario is not that the person is too "guilt-ridden" to bring themselves to cancel - it's that they only mildly want to cancel, for frivolous reasons. They want to find out if the other person also mildly wants to cancel. The point is, in many relationships it is simply not possible to find this information out, because asking "how much do you want to keep our plans" in and of itself reveals that you want to cancel. You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome.
- jonahx 5y ago
  >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. I get it. Again, the point is, so what? Take the measurement and alter the outcome. Or decide you're the one being the baby and keep the plans.
  - jazzkingrt 5y ago
    I agree when it comes to plans. But in general, aren't there some cases where we want to moderate our communication based on how it will be received? Honesty is the right default, but not universally correct. The classic example is that it might be preferable to tell someone that a dress they just bought looks good on them. I think as children we tend to be too honest, and then overshoot as teens or young adults by worrying too much about social acceptance. And we have to find a middle ground.
- fluoridation 5y ago
  I don't think that's quite right. It's not that they mildly want to cancel some plan, but rather that they don't really want to do it and are only going along with it because they think the other person wants to do it. Thus the hypothetical app would solve the situation where both people are doing something only because each thinks the other person wants to do it, but in fact neither wants to do it and neither wants to disappoint the other one by telling them they don't want to do it.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. There are 101 ways to addresses this. "How are you feeling about the plans" is simple enough if two people are being honest with each other.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    I agree. I've had lots of these kinds of interactions— it's definitely possible to "put out feelers" on whether someone is really excited about a thing or just going along with it. Yes there is a slight risk that that action will put a damper on the other person's interest, but it's not a huge deal to recover from— either by amping yourself up to assure them that you really are excited for the thing they're excited about, or taking the initiative the next time to make a thing happen that you know you can be excited about and follow through on. I've definitely also triggered the damper reaction accidentally in the past when just trying to make an innocent inquiry about a start time or something, so even if you rarely do it for real, it's good to understand these dynamics and how to navigate them.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I think the whole thing stems from fear of others seeing you as you truly are. If you are on the fence and not excited, that.. is reality and you can own it. You dont have to hide it, but it may have some consequences. I think people would be happier if they spent less time hiding behind deceptions, and more time managing the consequences.
      - mikepurvis 5y ago
        I think for me a lot of it is just the knowledge that often I end up really enjoying and feeling good about activities that I may not have been all that excited for at the outset— fitness stuff like swimming or going for a bike ride are obvious examples. So it's not just a matter of me being deceptive, it's also the internal conflict between my lizard brain ("stay home and do nothing, so great") and my thoughtful brain ("you enjoyed this the last time, give it a chance, ya dummy"). The not-being-a-baby for me is having the executive function to go do a thing that I know I'm probably going to end up being glad I did, while not wanting to be a wet blanket for everyone else by letting them all know upfront that I'm not there yet.
- mattcwilson 5y ago
  The other branch of this post’s children, from thrwy_ywrht is a perfect example of the sort of neurotic overanalysis that the article’s talking about. It’s extra cute that the poster is using a throwaway account. Some of the decisions you make in life will run counter to other people’s expectations. The strength you get, and demonstrate to them as well, from communicating your intentions is in acknowledging you can’t “protect their feelings” and aren’t trying, and that you have the respect for them as well to manage and regulate their own feelings. Good people will understand and forgive minor infractions. This isn’t license to freely commit any infraction. It’s just an acknowledgment of everyone’s fallibility.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > It’s just an acknowledgment of everyone’s fallibility. You are not describing failure there. You are describing the "I made plans I feel like cancelling and don't care about other person". Them reacting negatively is healthy self presentation instinct. Because if this is your strategy, you will cancel regularly and they are better off finding more reliable friends.
    - mattcwilson 5y ago
      Feels like we're maybe saying the same thing? I'm saying: * People are fallible. They will sometimes commit minor infractions, either accidentally or with sincere remorse. * Good people will forgive minor infractions. * This is not a license to commit infractions with abandon or remorselessness, or of any major size, and expect forgiveness.
grog454 5y ago
I agreed with your first sentence but not the rest. It's not a problem because pain is not inherently a problem. Yes it's going to hurt to find out someone doesn't want to go through with plans. It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did, or as much as you do theirs. But how is keeping your head buried in the sand going to be more beneficial in the long run?
- jonahx 5y ago
  We're saying the same thing.
- thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
  >It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did This is the crux of the issue. There are many people who often feel like cancelling on plans, but it is absolutely not because they don't enjoy their friends' company. It might be because they have a mood disorder, or chronic fatigue, or social anxiety, etc etc. The whole reason someone might want an app that lets you cancel on plans, but only if the other person also wants to cancel, is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. If you genuinely don't enjoy spending time with someone, that's a much easier problem to solve.
  - jonahx 5y ago
    >is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. Not only is it not "almost impossible" -- it's easy. Especially if you have a reputation for being honest. "Listen, I am feeling like shit right now, and won't have fun if we go out. It's got nothing to do with you. Can we reschedule?"
    - librish 5y ago
      The problem is that this is what people say even when it does have something to do with you.
watwut 5y ago
This does not sound like being strong or mature. This just sounds like insulting people for having feelings and hoping that since you called it "babyish", they will be insecure enough to not argue with you.
betwixthewires 5y ago
I think it's appropriate to get upset when someone cancels. I think it is more adult to only commit to something you intend to follow through on. Life happens. Sometimes some people cancel. But if you're one of those people always canceling plans, be prepared to find your invites become less frequent, and people not planning things around what you say. I've come to the point where if I don't know whether I want to do something I say "I'm not sure yet I'll let you know" and then always actually fess up and let them know one way or another, or say "yes" or "no" and follow through no matter how I feel. And I expect the same of people, people who get to know me who are used to peer pressure find themselves initially worried about saying no, but then I find, pleasantly refreshed when I just say "OK." People that flake a lot though get annoyed with me, because I hold them to what they say and give them a hard time if they don't follow through.

by jonahx 5y ago

thrwy_ywrht 5y ago

>The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. My reading of the scenario is not that the person is too "guilt-ridden" to bring themselves to cancel - it's that they only mildly want to cancel, for frivolous reasons. They want to find out if the other person also mildly wants to cancel. The point is, in many relationships it is simply not possible to find this information out, because asking "how much do you want to keep our plans" in and of itself reveals that you want to cancel. You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome.

jonahx 5y ago
>You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. I get it. Again, the point is, so what? Take the measurement and alter the outcome. Or decide you're the one being the baby and keep the plans.
- jazzkingrt 5y ago
  I agree when it comes to plans. But in general, aren't there some cases where we want to moderate our communication based on how it will be received? Honesty is the right default, but not universally correct. The classic example is that it might be preferable to tell someone that a dress they just bought looks good on them. I think as children we tend to be too honest, and then overshoot as teens or young adults by worrying too much about social acceptance. And we have to find a middle ground.
fluoridation 5y ago
I don't think that's quite right. It's not that they mildly want to cancel some plan, but rather that they don't really want to do it and are only going along with it because they think the other person wants to do it. Thus the hypothetical app would solve the situation where both people are doing something only because each thinks the other person wants to do it, but in fact neither wants to do it and neither wants to disappoint the other one by telling them they don't want to do it.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
>You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. There are 101 ways to addresses this. "How are you feeling about the plans" is simple enough if two people are being honest with each other.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I agree. I've had lots of these kinds of interactions— it's definitely possible to "put out feelers" on whether someone is really excited about a thing or just going along with it. Yes there is a slight risk that that action will put a damper on the other person's interest, but it's not a huge deal to recover from— either by amping yourself up to assure them that you really are excited for the thing they're excited about, or taking the initiative the next time to make a thing happen that you know you can be excited about and follow through on. I've definitely also triggered the damper reaction accidentally in the past when just trying to make an innocent inquiry about a start time or something, so even if you rarely do it for real, it's good to understand these dynamics and how to navigate them.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I think the whole thing stems from fear of others seeing you as you truly are. If you are on the fence and not excited, that.. is reality and you can own it. You dont have to hide it, but it may have some consequences. I think people would be happier if they spent less time hiding behind deceptions, and more time managing the consequences.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      I think for me a lot of it is just the knowledge that often I end up really enjoying and feeling good about activities that I may not have been all that excited for at the outset— fitness stuff like swimming or going for a bike ride are obvious examples. So it's not just a matter of me being deceptive, it's also the internal conflict between my lizard brain ("stay home and do nothing, so great") and my thoughtful brain ("you enjoyed this the last time, give it a chance, ya dummy"). The not-being-a-baby for me is having the executive function to go do a thing that I know I'm probably going to end up being glad I did, while not wanting to be a wet blanket for everyone else by letting them all know upfront that I'm not there yet.
mattcwilson 5y ago
The other branch of this post’s children, from thrwy_ywrht is a perfect example of the sort of neurotic overanalysis that the article’s talking about. It’s extra cute that the poster is using a throwaway account. Some of the decisions you make in life will run counter to other people’s expectations. The strength you get, and demonstrate to them as well, from communicating your intentions is in acknowledging you can’t “protect their feelings” and aren’t trying, and that you have the respect for them as well to manage and regulate their own feelings. Good people will understand and forgive minor infractions. This isn’t license to freely commit any infraction. It’s just an acknowledgment of everyone’s fallibility.
- watwut 5y ago
  > It’s just an acknowledgment of everyone’s fallibility. You are not describing failure there. You are describing the "I made plans I feel like cancelling and don't care about other person". Them reacting negatively is healthy self presentation instinct. Because if this is your strategy, you will cancel regularly and they are better off finding more reliable friends.
  - mattcwilson 5y ago
    Feels like we're maybe saying the same thing? I'm saying: * People are fallible. They will sometimes commit minor infractions, either accidentally or with sincere remorse. * Good people will forgive minor infractions. * This is not a license to commit infractions with abandon or remorselessness, or of any major size, and expect forgiveness.

grog454 5y ago

I agreed with your first sentence but not the rest. It's not a problem because pain is not inherently a problem. Yes it's going to hurt to find out someone doesn't want to go through with plans. It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did, or as much as you do theirs. But how is keeping your head buried in the sand going to be more beneficial in the long run?

jonahx 5y ago
We're saying the same thing.
thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
>It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did This is the crux of the issue. There are many people who often feel like cancelling on plans, but it is absolutely not because they don't enjoy their friends' company. It might be because they have a mood disorder, or chronic fatigue, or social anxiety, etc etc. The whole reason someone might want an app that lets you cancel on plans, but only if the other person also wants to cancel, is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. If you genuinely don't enjoy spending time with someone, that's a much easier problem to solve.
- jonahx 5y ago
  >is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. Not only is it not "almost impossible" -- it's easy. Especially if you have a reputation for being honest. "Listen, I am feeling like shit right now, and won't have fun if we go out. It's got nothing to do with you. Can we reschedule?"
  - librish 5y ago
    The problem is that this is what people say even when it does have something to do with you.

watwut 5y ago

This does not sound like being strong or mature. This just sounds like insulting people for having feelings and hoping that since you called it "babyish", they will be insecure enough to not argue with you.

betwixthewires 5y ago

I think it's appropriate to get upset when someone cancels. I think it is more adult to only commit to something you intend to follow through on. Life happens. Sometimes some people cancel. But if you're one of those people always canceling plans, be prepared to find your invites become less frequent, and people not planning things around what you say. I've come to the point where if I don't know whether I want to do something I say "I'm not sure yet I'll let you know" and then always actually fess up and let them know one way or another, or say "yes" or "no" and follow through no matter how I feel. And I expect the same of people, people who get to know me who are used to peer pressure find themselves initially worried about saying no, but then I find, pleasantly refreshed when I just say "OK." People that flake a lot though get annoyed with me, because I hold them to what they say and give them a hard time if they don't follow through.