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I find it a bit strange that the author leads with the example of wanting to "blind cancel", and then suggests that maturity and communication is the real answe

I find it a bit strange that the author leads with the example of wanting to "blind cancel", and then suggests that maturity and communication is the real answer to that scenario. People sometimes seem to imply that if we could just select the most appropriate types of language, and only express our true, heartfelt feelings, then our language will never cause pain. But that's just not true. Sometimes your friend may also secretly want to cancel, but other times your friend will be hurt by knowing you want to cancel the plans you made together that they have, for whatever reason, been really looking forward to. And sometimes there doesn't exist a way to communicate your true feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature and communicating truthfully cannot solve this problem. Often times the solution is to suck it up and stick to the plans -- but that has nothing to do with communication.

jonahx 5y ago
>And sometimes there doesn't exist a way to communicate your true feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature and communicating truthfully cannot solve this problem. That's because it's not a problem. The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. In both cases the solution is not to avoid the feelings, but to become stronger.
- thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
  >The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. My reading of the scenario is not that the person is too "guilt-ridden" to bring themselves to cancel - it's that they only mildly want to cancel, for frivolous reasons. They want to find out if the other person also mildly wants to cancel. The point is, in many relationships it is simply not possible to find this information out, because asking "how much do you want to keep our plans" in and of itself reveals that you want to cancel. You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome.
  - jonahx 5y ago
    >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. I get it. Again, the point is, so what? Take the measurement and alter the outcome. Or decide you're the one being the baby and keep the plans.
    - jazzkingrt 5y ago
      I agree when it comes to plans. But in general, aren't there some cases where we want to moderate our communication based on how it will be received? Honesty is the right default, but not universally correct. The classic example is that it might be preferable to tell someone that a dress they just bought looks good on them. I think as children we tend to be too honest, and then overshoot as teens or young adults by worrying too much about social acceptance. And we have to find a middle ground.
  - fluoridation 5y ago
    I don't think that's quite right. It's not that they mildly want to cancel some plan, but rather that they don't really want to do it and are only going along with it because they think the other person wants to do it. Thus the hypothetical app would solve the situation where both people are doing something only because each thinks the other person wants to do it, but in fact neither wants to do it and neither wants to disappoint the other one by telling them they don't want to do it.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. There are 101 ways to addresses this. "How are you feeling about the plans" is simple enough if two people are being honest with each other.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      I agree. I've had lots of these kinds of interactions— it's definitely possible to "put out feelers" on whether someone is really excited about a thing or just going along with it. Yes there is a slight risk that that action will put a damper on the other person's interest, but it's not a huge deal to recover from— either by amping yourself up to assure them that you really are excited for the thing they're excited about, or taking the initiative the next time to make a thing happen that you know you can be excited about and follow through on. I've definitely also triggered the damper reaction accidentally in the past when just trying to make an innocent inquiry about a start time or something, so even if you rarely do it for real, it's good to understand these dynamics and how to navigate them.
- grog454 5y ago
  I agreed with your first sentence but not the rest. It's not a problem because pain is not inherently a problem. Yes it's going to hurt to find out someone doesn't want to go through with plans. It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did, or as much as you do theirs. But how is keeping your head buried in the sand going to be more beneficial in the long run?
  - jonahx 5y ago
    We're saying the same thing.
  - thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
    >It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did This is the crux of the issue. There are many people who often feel like cancelling on plans, but it is absolutely not because they don't enjoy their friends' company. It might be because they have a mood disorder, or chronic fatigue, or social anxiety, etc etc. The whole reason someone might want an app that lets you cancel on plans, but only if the other person also wants to cancel, is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. If you genuinely don't enjoy spending time with someone, that's a much easier problem to solve.
    - jonahx 5y ago
      >is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. Not only is it not "almost impossible" -- it's easy. Especially if you have a reputation for being honest. "Listen, I am feeling like shit right now, and won't have fun if we go out. It's got nothing to do with you. Can we reschedule?"
      - librish 5y ago
        The problem is that this is what people say even when it does have something to do with you.
- watwut 5y ago
  This does not sound like being strong or mature. This just sounds like insulting people for having feelings and hoping that since you called it "babyish", they will be insecure enough to not argue with you.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I think it's appropriate to get upset when someone cancels. I think it is more adult to only commit to something you intend to follow through on. Life happens. Sometimes some people cancel. But if you're one of those people always canceling plans, be prepared to find your invites become less frequent, and people not planning things around what you say. I've come to the point where if I don't know whether I want to do something I say "I'm not sure yet I'll let you know" and then always actually fess up and let them know one way or another, or say "yes" or "no" and follow through no matter how I feel. And I expect the same of people, people who get to know me who are used to peer pressure find themselves initially worried about saying no, but then I find, pleasantly refreshed when I just say "OK." People that flake a lot though get annoyed with me, because I hold them to what they say and give them a hard time if they don't follow through.
em-bee 5y ago
no matter how much i look forward to an activity with a friend, if they don't want to go, then i want to know, i'd rather cancel or reschedule than have someone be secretly miserable. the relationship itself is more important than my feelings about it. for a close friend, avoidance is damaging to the relationship, talking about it, strengthens the relationship. sucking it up quietly is the wrong answer. sometimes there may be a situation where canceling causes problems for the other person, but you only find out by talking about it and if you end up going anyways after you tell them, they will appreciate it even more that your friendship is worth so much that you are willing to be uncomfortable for their sake.
- caddemon 5y ago
  It really depends on the situation IMO. "Sucking it up quietly" doesn't necessarily mean that the entire event will be unpleasant. Sometimes it is more like the activation energy necessary to stick to an exercise routine - if I had a draining work week I'll have low motivation to go out, but if I do "suck it up" I'm usually happy at the end of the night that I did. The social pressure to "suck it up" can actually be an awesome motivator for healthy behaviors, e.g. committing to a rec sports team. So there is definitely variation here. You need to know not just how important the event is to your friend, but also yourself.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    right, it depends, if the thing that agreed to has some other benefits. an alternative example would be after that draining work week cancelling an activity because i know i'll be tired the next morning and i really need more rest to be fit the next day.
jonnycomputer 5y ago
Sometimes your friend will want to cancel and be upset when you feel the same.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ewidar 5y ago
I think you're missing part of the author's point. Yes, as adults, we are bound to "cause some pain" as you put it in some mundane situations, such as cancelling a plan that someone else has been looking forward to. But her point is that what matters is expressing and discussing with your friends in that scenario: - Tell them you don't feel like going out after all, maybe you're drained by work and need some time to cool off - They could answer that it's fine, they don't mind going out alone - Or maybe they'll propose to just stay in at your place for a quick dinner, just to catch up for a bit and let you rest - Or they could let you know that they really need to go out with you, as they are going through a rough patch - At that point you have a better idea of what different options you both have, and you can make an informed decision either way, deciding between your needs and your friend's needs. - etc... Obviously if that friend is important to you and you've already cancelled 3 times then maybe suck it up a bit. It's all a matter of context. The point is that you should start by not avoiding that interaction with your friend for silly reasons, and relying on tech/tricks is not going to help for long.
dleslie 5y ago
> People sometimes seem to imply that if we could just select the most appropriate types of language, and only express our true, heartfelt feelings, then our language will never cause pain. Accepting the inevitability and utility of pain is part of being an adult. Childhood should teach us how to handle pain and mitigate the pain we cause, but not to avoid it unnecessarily.
adewinter 5y ago
>> I find it a bit strange that the author leads with the example of wanting to "blind cancel", and then suggests that maturity and communication is the real answer to that scenario. I don't think that's the _only_ solution the author is suggesting. She also goes on to mention "...self-knowledge: Will you be in the mood next week?". In other words, don't make plans if you're not confident you won't break them. Similar to the idea of "hell yes or no" as a response to social requests. If you don't have a strong sense for stuff you like/don't like doing and how you'll feel about social situations in the future that's going to be tough.
mdoms 5y ago
You're missing the point. The desire to bail out of a social commitment is the problem, not the way you're doing it. Blind cancelling or coming right out and saying it are both baby behaviour.

jonahx 5y ago

>And sometimes there doesn't exist a way to communicate your true feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature and communicating truthfully cannot solve this problem. That's because it's not a problem. The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. In both cases the solution is not to avoid the feelings, but to become stronger.

thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
>The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. My reading of the scenario is not that the person is too "guilt-ridden" to bring themselves to cancel - it's that they only mildly want to cancel, for frivolous reasons. They want to find out if the other person also mildly wants to cancel. The point is, in many relationships it is simply not possible to find this information out, because asking "how much do you want to keep our plans" in and of itself reveals that you want to cancel. You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome.
- jonahx 5y ago
  >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. I get it. Again, the point is, so what? Take the measurement and alter the outcome. Or decide you're the one being the baby and keep the plans.
  - jazzkingrt 5y ago
    I agree when it comes to plans. But in general, aren't there some cases where we want to moderate our communication based on how it will be received? Honesty is the right default, but not universally correct. The classic example is that it might be preferable to tell someone that a dress they just bought looks good on them. I think as children we tend to be too honest, and then overshoot as teens or young adults by worrying too much about social acceptance. And we have to find a middle ground.
- fluoridation 5y ago
  I don't think that's quite right. It's not that they mildly want to cancel some plan, but rather that they don't really want to do it and are only going along with it because they think the other person wants to do it. Thus the hypothetical app would solve the situation where both people are doing something only because each thinks the other person wants to do it, but in fact neither wants to do it and neither wants to disappoint the other one by telling them they don't want to do it.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter the outcome. There are 101 ways to addresses this. "How are you feeling about the plans" is simple enough if two people are being honest with each other.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    I agree. I've had lots of these kinds of interactions— it's definitely possible to "put out feelers" on whether someone is really excited about a thing or just going along with it. Yes there is a slight risk that that action will put a damper on the other person's interest, but it's not a huge deal to recover from— either by amping yourself up to assure them that you really are excited for the thing they're excited about, or taking the initiative the next time to make a thing happen that you know you can be excited about and follow through on. I've definitely also triggered the damper reaction accidentally in the past when just trying to make an innocent inquiry about a start time or something, so even if you rarely do it for real, it's good to understand these dynamics and how to navigate them.
grog454 5y ago
I agreed with your first sentence but not the rest. It's not a problem because pain is not inherently a problem. Yes it's going to hurt to find out someone doesn't want to go through with plans. It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did, or as much as you do theirs. But how is keeping your head buried in the sand going to be more beneficial in the long run?
- jonahx 5y ago
  We're saying the same thing.
- thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
  >It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought they did This is the crux of the issue. There are many people who often feel like cancelling on plans, but it is absolutely not because they don't enjoy their friends' company. It might be because they have a mood disorder, or chronic fatigue, or social anxiety, etc etc. The whole reason someone might want an app that lets you cancel on plans, but only if the other person also wants to cancel, is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. If you genuinely don't enjoy spending time with someone, that's a much easier problem to solve.
  - jonahx 5y ago
    >is because it's almost impossible to express this feeling to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they thought. Not only is it not "almost impossible" -- it's easy. Especially if you have a reputation for being honest. "Listen, I am feeling like shit right now, and won't have fun if we go out. It's got nothing to do with you. Can we reschedule?"
    - librish 5y ago
      The problem is that this is what people say even when it does have something to do with you.
watwut 5y ago
This does not sound like being strong or mature. This just sounds like insulting people for having feelings and hoping that since you called it "babyish", they will be insecure enough to not argue with you.
betwixthewires 5y ago
I think it's appropriate to get upset when someone cancels. I think it is more adult to only commit to something you intend to follow through on. Life happens. Sometimes some people cancel. But if you're one of those people always canceling plans, be prepared to find your invites become less frequent, and people not planning things around what you say. I've come to the point where if I don't know whether I want to do something I say "I'm not sure yet I'll let you know" and then always actually fess up and let them know one way or another, or say "yes" or "no" and follow through no matter how I feel. And I expect the same of people, people who get to know me who are used to peer pressure find themselves initially worried about saying no, but then I find, pleasantly refreshed when I just say "OK." People that flake a lot though get annoyed with me, because I hold them to what they say and give them a hard time if they don't follow through.

em-bee 5y ago

no matter how much i look forward to an activity with a friend, if they don't want to go, then i want to know, i'd rather cancel or reschedule than have someone be secretly miserable. the relationship itself is more important than my feelings about it. for a close friend, avoidance is damaging to the relationship, talking about it, strengthens the relationship. sucking it up quietly is the wrong answer. sometimes there may be a situation where canceling causes problems for the other person, but you only find out by talking about it and if you end up going anyways after you tell them, they will appreciate it even more that your friendship is worth so much that you are willing to be uncomfortable for their sake.

caddemon 5y ago
It really depends on the situation IMO. "Sucking it up quietly" doesn't necessarily mean that the entire event will be unpleasant. Sometimes it is more like the activation energy necessary to stick to an exercise routine - if I had a draining work week I'll have low motivation to go out, but if I do "suck it up" I'm usually happy at the end of the night that I did. The social pressure to "suck it up" can actually be an awesome motivator for healthy behaviors, e.g. committing to a rec sports team. So there is definitely variation here. You need to know not just how important the event is to your friend, but also yourself.
- em-bee 5y ago
  right, it depends, if the thing that agreed to has some other benefits. an alternative example would be after that draining work week cancelling an activity because i know i'll be tired the next morning and i really need more rest to be fit the next day.

jonnycomputer 5y ago

Sometimes your friend will want to cancel and be upset when you feel the same.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ewidar 5y ago

I think you're missing part of the author's point. Yes, as adults, we are bound to "cause some pain" as you put it in some mundane situations, such as cancelling a plan that someone else has been looking forward to. But her point is that what matters is expressing and discussing with your friends in that scenario: - Tell them you don't feel like going out after all, maybe you're drained by work and need some time to cool off - They could answer that it's fine, they don't mind going out alone - Or maybe they'll propose to just stay in at your place for a quick dinner, just to catch up for a bit and let you rest - Or they could let you know that they really need to go out with you, as they are going through a rough patch - At that point you have a better idea of what different options you both have, and you can make an informed decision either way, deciding between your needs and your friend's needs. - etc... Obviously if that friend is important to you and you've already cancelled 3 times then maybe suck it up a bit. It's all a matter of context. The point is that you should start by not avoiding that interaction with your friend for silly reasons, and relying on tech/tricks is not going to help for long.

dleslie 5y ago

> People sometimes seem to imply that if we could just select the most appropriate types of language, and only express our true, heartfelt feelings, then our language will never cause pain. Accepting the inevitability and utility of pain is part of being an adult. Childhood should teach us how to handle pain and mitigate the pain we cause, but not to avoid it unnecessarily.

adewinter 5y ago

>> I find it a bit strange that the author leads with the example of wanting to "blind cancel", and then suggests that maturity and communication is the real answer to that scenario. I don't think that's the _only_ solution the author is suggesting. She also goes on to mention "...self-knowledge: Will you be in the mood next week?". In other words, don't make plans if you're not confident you won't break them. Similar to the idea of "hell yes or no" as a response to social requests. If you don't have a strong sense for stuff you like/don't like doing and how you'll feel about social situations in the future that's going to be tough.

mdoms 5y ago

You're missing the point. The desire to bail out of a social commitment is the problem, not the way you're doing it. Blind cancelling or coming right out and saying it are both baby behaviour.