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Bucha Massacre
- merpkz 5y agoI legit don't get it what's the end game here for Russians. What can they possible achieve by doing all these atrocities in broad daylight for everyone to witness? I have heard their military doctrine is to escalate to de-escalate, whatever that means, they seem to be doing fine, so what's next?
- etotolkoya 5y agoa call for an independent investigation of what happened in Bucha by UN: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/04/1115442 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/04/1115442
- ncmncm 5y agoBut why specifically in Bucha? Is this about Russians being obliged to retreat, and committing atrocities on the way out? Or is this going on in other places Russians still hold, and we only found it about it in Bucha, specifically, because they are out? Can we expect similar revelations in each place they are forced out of?
- Aretas77 5y agoThe Bucha was taken by the Russians and, as they are retreating to theirs border right now, the Bucha is now again in Ukraine hands and now it became possible to document the atrocities.
- reducesuffering 5y agoThe world isn't ready to understand what has happened in Mariupol. Like the other commenter said, it will be uncovered once Russian forces retreat, and is ten times the destruction.
- Aretas77 5y agoI, personally, am very concerned about Mariupol, the Russians there are free to do whatever they want (torture, rape, etc..). As they are there for quite some time already, they also had time to cover up their wrongdoings which is even more concerning.
- mediumsmart 5y agoyou should be concerned yes: https://rumble.com/vzj5jh-ukraine-mariupol-residents-speak-azov-is-killing-civilians.html https://rumble.com/vzj5jh-ukraine-mariupol-residents-speak-a...
- reducesuffering 5y agoYou can stop your Russian propaganda op: https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1511067472803282950 https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1511067472803282950 Sad how you still haven't learned after Russia repeatedly lied to you about how it wasn't going to invade Ukraine.
- ttybird2 5y agoYour link is about Bucha, the person that you are replying to is talking about Mariupol.
- yucky 5y agoThe world isn't ready to understand that the Russians aren't going to retreat from Mariupol, that land bridge to Crimea through the important port of Mariupol was always the key point of the invasion.
- reducesuffering 5y agoFour weeks ago, people said the entire Ukrainian state was no match for the Russian army spearheading towards Kyiv. Today, the entire north of the country is free due to Ukrainian resistance. There are no givens. Ukraine may be able to retain their entire country.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- aaron695 5y agoThis Wikipedia article and most reporting is a mess. "Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk, "hundreds of Russian soldiers" were also among the bodies" - so you will also expect hundreds of dead Ukrainians who fought to be buried in the mass grave. That is not a "massacre", that would be war. We know the media constantly lies about mass graves and what they are, see the Canadian schools or New York and Hart Island. What they do seem to have evidence of is very bad for Russia. So Russia lost control of the troops in the area. It should have not happened or should have been cleaned up. So far Russia seems to have structurally failed everywhere, so I'd expect more of this. There seems to be no evidence Chechens were in the area. That would be an alternate explanation of why Russia couldn't control these troops.
- AnAmericanPOV64 5y agoThis should be investigated by the ICC...along with all of the war crimes the U.S. got away with in Iraq and Afghanistan.
- Gatsky 5y ago> Professor Michael Clarke, a defence and security expert and a specialist adviser to the House of Commons Defence Committee, has said that the images coming out of Ukraine are clear evidence of war crimes. He told Sky News: "The deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime in and of itself, every day of the week. So unless somebody can provide a military logic why civilians are targeted, that is a straight war crime. Civilians who appear to have had their hands tied behind their back and were shot. There’s no strategic rationale for that whatsoever." As to the response from Russia to the accusations, Clarke said: "They always deny it. The Russia deny everything like this. They go through three phases. First of all, they deny everything. And then they try to obfuscate, they create stuff on social media, which indicates 'Oh it’s all very complicated and this was going on at the time, and that was going on, and no simple answers are possible'. And then a couple of years later, they often admit it and they say yes, yes, we did do this or we did do that, but you do the same. And they point to some sort of moral equivalence in the West. They did it over the poisoning of Litvinenko in 2006 and Skripal in 2018. They did it over the bringing down of the civilian airliner over Ukraine. They always deny it. They always do. And nobody believes them. That’s the point." https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/apr/04/russia-ukraine-war-latest-zelenskiy-calls-russian-forces-butchers-after-civilian-mass-graves-found-around-kyiv-live https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/apr/04/russia-uk...
- aaron695 5y ago> Professor Michael Clarke, a defence and security expert and a specialist adviser to the House of Commons Defence Committee, has said that the images coming out of Ukraine are clear evidence of war crimes. He told Sky News: For anyone interested in what Michael Clarke actually said rather than this misrepresentation, it was interesting, video - https://nitter.net/SkyNews/status/1510868662982479875 https://nitter.net/SkyNews/status/1510868662982479875
- jesterson 5y ago
- mihaigalos 5y agoYou attribute too much intellect to the grunt on the ground. Nobody thinks like that after fighting in the war, they might die tomorrow. Who else might have "done it"? Ukrainians themselves? What a very bad joke.
- jesterson 5y agoThat's right, although we need not to let emotions prevail and at least ask for independent investigation. I have no knowledge who did it because I haven't seen any investigation yet. And yes, I wouldn't rule out anything. War is ugly, people do ugly things. It's not a fight of angels with demons.
- mediumsmart 5y agoexactly, the only grunts with intellect and smarts are seen here placing a dummy AA system in a residential area so that it will become clear hopefully that the russians are needlessly bombing civilians. https://twitter.com/gbazov/status/1510773542618550280?s=20 https://twitter.com/gbazov/status/1510773542618550280?s=20
- emptysongglass 5y agoThese are Ukrainians found tortured, mutilated, raped and killed, not Russians. There is plenty of evidence in the linked article. Please don't do this here.
- jesterson 5y ago> Please don't do this here. What makes you think you can give advices on what people should or shouldn't do here? If you don't need proper investigation to figure out who actually did that - it's your choice. But don't try to censor those who think not like you.
- lizardactivist 5y agoA truly independent investigation is what is needed. And the U.S. hypocrisy statements is not helping Ukraine's case one bit, like Anthony Blinken promising to hold perpetrators accountable. How about cleaning your own house first? Again, an independent investigation is what we must ask for.
- nyckmnd 5y ago
- mediumsmart 5y ago[flagged]
- wrp 5y agoEven if this turns out not to be the true chain of events, at least this is an attempt to get at the facts rather than venting. I read HN to find comments that try to make a concrete contribution to our knowledge. So, please folks, more.
- ailef 5y agoComments like that, even though he's just asking legitimate questions, are often downvoted into oblivion very quickly. Given the amount of lies circulated by Ukraine's and Russian authorities, I'm always wary of accepting anything I read at face value. Also, Ukraine has an abysmal track record when it comes to investigations (see those into the Maidan sniper killings and the Odessa massacre), so again, I don't see how you can immediately buy into this shit without the least amount of doubt. It seems most people do though and it makes me really sad.
- mediumsmart 5y agothe narrative is walking a thin red line and people pick the view they like, should or actually have. 3-31 NYT posts story about UA fears of saboteurs (pro-Russian Ukrainian civilians). 4-2 UA news publishes story of UA forces going into #Bucha to clear it of "saboteurs & accomplices". Now photos/vids show many of the dead with RU food bags & white RU armbands. UA looking guilty. https://twitter.com/morphonios/status/1510943831109287940?s=20 https://twitter.com/morphonios/status/1510943831109287940?s=...
- inter_netuser 5y ago
- lizardactivist 5y ago
- niklasbuschmann 5y agoThis thread is full of comments from accounts created within the last month whose only contributions are [flagged] allegations of Ukraine being a Neo-Nazi state. There are multiple independent reports of the Russian army committing war crimes: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-cri...
- wrp 5y agoI'm old enough to have watched the "Kuwaiti incubator hoax" play out. Having observed a few wars at fairly close range, I'm automatically suspicious of elaborate atrocity stories. That particular story you link actually influences me to be suspicious of the Bucha story. The intent of the article is to portray how bad things are, and the stories it relates are truly awful. But if the Bucha story really represents what is going on, the writers should have found much worse things to report.
- guilhas 5y agoMost mainstream media reported Ukraine gov links with neo-nazi groups, before 2022, all forgotten now Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s...
- VictorPath 5y ago
- realsmittysmith 5y agoBe on the lookout for the unholy trinity of Russian troll tactics: 1) bUt thE UsA cOmMiTtEd wAr cRiMes In tHe MiDdlE EaSt! 2) UkRaIne StaGed iT! 3) uKrAinE iS a nAzI sTaTe! Responses are simple. 1) How's that relevant at all right now? 2) ...in areas that were under Russian occupation for weeks and only recently liberated, okay. Also, why stage atrocities when Russia isn't even hiding the fact that it's committing constant atrocities? 3) Unconvincing and unverified. Nazis are everywhere. Russia has an FSB commander with the SS bars tatted on his neck and their whole playbook in this war is Fascism 101. Ukraine's 6 biggest uber-far-right factions came together in the last election and got a whopping <2% of the vote. Whoop-de-f*#king doo. Tell that to folks with active KKK movements in their states.
- inter_netuser 5y agoUkraine had two ministers of national security who are openly neo-nazis. Ukrainian nationalists committed massacres in Odessa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... Their national hero: https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-nationalists-march-in-in-honor-of-nazi-collaborator/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-national... "Stepan Bandera led Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany during WWII, killing thousands of Jews and Poles" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Jews They sure love to name streets (50 thousand streets reenamed since 2015!) erecting monuments, and march in parades for an actual, documented and proven Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, and racist who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Jews, Poles, anyone not Ukranian, in pursuit of "pure" Ukrainian race" (his own words, published in WaPo, of all places). That's their national hero. Unverified, with only 50,000 monuments and streets named after a literal Nazi. Obviously only angels live in that country.
- realsmittysmith 5y agoBurning people alive isn't cool no matter what. Burning traitors alive is a different issue, although no less humane. sigh The Bandera argument. I lived in East Ukraine for several years and they're not all hoo rah rah about Bandera at all, so I don't buy the "all Ukrainians worship Bandera THEREFORE they're all Nazis" argument. It's lazy, frankly. Bandera also spent most of WWII in prison, by the way. The Israel Times "article" is a poorly researched blurb, not an article. It also says that Ukraine started an armed conflict with Russia in 2014, which is a very Putin-esque take on what the rest of the world sees as an unlawful annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory. Was Bandera a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist? Yeah. Remember that Wikipedia article you're citing to me?: "Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role." Does that mean people in WWII were angels? No. Is history much more nuanced than you're making it out to be? Yes. Also, not sure where you're getting that 50,000 number from at all.
- mediumsmart 5y ago[flagged]
- inter_netuser 5y agoYou might want to back this up somewhere, will be brigaded into deletion in minutes.
- mediumsmart 5y agofair enough - its a democracy :)
- wrp 5y agoEven if the points listed turn out to be all propaganda, this gives us specific names, dates, places, and actions to investigate. Can we please agree to have more like this and less ranting. The war is a terrible thing and I'm sure it makes some people feel better to vent, but I really want to understand what happened and most posts in threads about the war are just noise.
- jbirer 5y agoNot related to tech.
- Gatsky 5y agohttps://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-fac...