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> the mainstream consensus was that anyone who prioritised the economy over stopping Covid was an evil murderer, and every single Covid death that happened was

> the mainstream consensus was that anyone who prioritised the economy over stopping Covid was an evil murderer, and every single Covid death that happened was caused by our government not stopping it. This poses a false dichotomy between strict lockdowns and economic growth. The UK had both bad death rates and a bad economic hit compared to other countries in europe. I think the conservatives tried to balance the short-term interests of the economy against case numbers, and ultimately ended up muddling about in the middle, which was why they ended up with the worst of both worlds. The countries that did really well in the pandemic (east asian countries) typically went for what seemed like drastic measures in the early stages. As time went on, it's become apparent that their liberties, economies, and also case numbers were all far less impacted by the pandemic compared to western countries that had to go into emergency lockdowns as case counts soared out of control. Even in the limited context of western europe, one of the reasons why the UK had so many days in lockdown (more than France or Germany, often with more stringent rules, iirc) was because they prevaricated so much about bringing in lockdowns, then had to make them much tighter to compensate.

lostlogin 5y ago
Could a down voter provide a rebuttal?
- makomk 5y ago
  I didn't downvote, but the UK was middle of the pack amongst European countries in terms of Covid deaths and economic damage. It's just our media focused on anything that'd make us look worse, like comparing total deaths without adjusting for population size or cherry-picking specific time periods to yell about. Also, pretty much the whole of Europe pursued very similar policies so that comparison isn't going to tell you much anyway.
saghm 5y ago
> The countries that did really well in the pandemic (east asian countries) typically went for what seemed like drastic measures in the early stages. As time went on, it's become apparent that their liberties, economies, and also case numbers were all far less impacted by the pandemic compared to western countries that had to go into emergency lockdowns as case counts soared out of control. Even in the limited context of western europe, one of the reasons why the UK had so many days in lockdown (more than France or Germany, often with more stringent rules, iirc) was because they prevaricated so much about bringing in lockdowns, then had to make them much tighter to compensate. This raises an interesting point I hadn't considered; assuming that there will still be some transfer of the virus during lockdown (although presumably more limited) due to people still needing to go out to get food (or have food delivered, which still requires someone else going out), getting medical care, etc., the amount of time needed to stay in lockdown to lower the number of cases below a given threshold seem like it would grow in relation to the number of cases at the time lockdown was initiated. To make up some numbers, if the goal is to get the number of cases below 1% of the population, it's much easier to get there if you start the lockdown with only 2% of the country infected versus 5%. I don't have anywhere near the expertise to do even the most naive of calculations of how many extra days that would translate into in the real world, but given that I imagine the virus spreads faster than it goes away, it sounds like delaying by a certain amount of time would lead to _more_ than that amount of time needed to stay in lockdown. I wonder if the US had gone into lockdown at the beginning of March or even earlier, then the lockdown might have been shortened by months.
- pasabagi 5y ago
  I imagine 'reluctant lockdowns' also create unclear messaging, so the general public is less likely to know or follow lockdown rules, making them less effective. As I understand it, lockdowns were generally put in place to stop the hospital system from collapsing under the case load - so I imagine the higher the case count (which typically increases during the first weeks of the lockdown due to lead time) the more time you'd need to resupply, reorganize, process the patients coming through the system, etc.
nradov 5y ago
You can't seriously claim that countries which imposed serious, long-lasting restrictions on the basic human right of freedom of assembly did "really well" in the pandemic. That's revisionist history. Saving lives is not a valid justification. If you think it is, then why not impose a permanent police state? We could probably save some lives by giving police the power to search anywhere without a warrant.
- pasabagi 5y ago
  That's the point. If you consider hours spent in lockdown per-capita, even a country like China, an authoritarian police state, did less harm to the liberties of their citizens than countries like the UK, France or Germany with their pandemic response. That's without bring up countries like Japan, South Korea, or Australia, all of which are liberal democracies.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Well now you're just making things up. UK, France, and Germany did harm to civil liberties but nowhere near as bad as China. They still have entire cities under strict lockdowns right now! https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frustration-mounts-as-china-extends-covid-lockdown-in-shanghai/ar-AAVKDQF https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frustration-mounts-as-c...

lostlogin 5y ago

Could a down voter provide a rebuttal?

makomk 5y ago
I didn't downvote, but the UK was middle of the pack amongst European countries in terms of Covid deaths and economic damage. It's just our media focused on anything that'd make us look worse, like comparing total deaths without adjusting for population size or cherry-picking specific time periods to yell about. Also, pretty much the whole of Europe pursued very similar policies so that comparison isn't going to tell you much anyway.

saghm 5y ago

> The countries that did really well in the pandemic (east asian countries) typically went for what seemed like drastic measures in the early stages. As time went on, it's become apparent that their liberties, economies, and also case numbers were all far less impacted by the pandemic compared to western countries that had to go into emergency lockdowns as case counts soared out of control. Even in the limited context of western europe, one of the reasons why the UK had so many days in lockdown (more than France or Germany, often with more stringent rules, iirc) was because they prevaricated so much about bringing in lockdowns, then had to make them much tighter to compensate. This raises an interesting point I hadn't considered; assuming that there will still be some transfer of the virus during lockdown (although presumably more limited) due to people still needing to go out to get food (or have food delivered, which still requires someone else going out), getting medical care, etc., the amount of time needed to stay in lockdown to lower the number of cases below a given threshold seem like it would grow in relation to the number of cases at the time lockdown was initiated. To make up some numbers, if the goal is to get the number of cases below 1% of the population, it's much easier to get there if you start the lockdown with only 2% of the country infected versus 5%. I don't have anywhere near the expertise to do even the most naive of calculations of how many extra days that would translate into in the real world, but given that I imagine the virus spreads faster than it goes away, it sounds like delaying by a certain amount of time would lead to _more_ than that amount of time needed to stay in lockdown. I wonder if the US had gone into lockdown at the beginning of March or even earlier, then the lockdown might have been shortened by months.

pasabagi 5y ago
I imagine 'reluctant lockdowns' also create unclear messaging, so the general public is less likely to know or follow lockdown rules, making them less effective. As I understand it, lockdowns were generally put in place to stop the hospital system from collapsing under the case load - so I imagine the higher the case count (which typically increases during the first weeks of the lockdown due to lead time) the more time you'd need to resupply, reorganize, process the patients coming through the system, etc.

nradov 5y ago

You can't seriously claim that countries which imposed serious, long-lasting restrictions on the basic human right of freedom of assembly did "really well" in the pandemic. That's revisionist history. Saving lives is not a valid justification. If you think it is, then why not impose a permanent police state? We could probably save some lives by giving police the power to search anywhere without a warrant.

pasabagi 5y ago
That's the point. If you consider hours spent in lockdown per-capita, even a country like China, an authoritarian police state, did less harm to the liberties of their citizens than countries like the UK, France or Germany with their pandemic response. That's without bring up countries like Japan, South Korea, or Australia, all of which are liberal democracies.
- nradov 5y ago
  Well now you're just making things up. UK, France, and Germany did harm to civil liberties but nowhere near as bad as China. They still have entire cities under strict lockdowns right now! https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frustration-mounts-as-china-extends-covid-lockdown-in-shanghai/ar-AAVKDQF https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frustration-mounts-as-c...