5 ms·

AppleSqueezer GS: A Modern Apple ][ Accelerator

92 points by pcr910303 5y ago

pkaye 5y ago
Should have been called Apple Juice.
wang_li 5y ago
The about dialog says copyright -2015. Apple was releasing patches/versions of the Apple IIgs OS until 2015?
- SkyArrow 5y ago
  6.0.2 is an unofficial community release. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIGS#System_Software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIGS#System_Software
corysama 5y ago
Similar accelerator for the Commodore 64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCPU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9clez2fxxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9clez2fxxw
erickhill 5y ago
Me: OMG the Apple Retro Brains are finally getting into the game! (checks the shop) "Out of Stock" :(
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  It’s like trying to get concert tickets for your favorite band’s farewell tour.
- dylan604 5y ago
  "Out of Stock" looks so much better than "Coming Soon". Like having a long queue of people outside of the nightclub to make it look popular.
- rasz 5y ago
  they are out of stock on W65C816S6TQG-14 chips. WDC is a very small player and they probably do die manufacturing runs every couple of years and then package according to the demand. Surprisingly Mouser has 24 chips in stock with more "promised" very soon https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Western-Design-Center-WDC/W65C816S6TQG-14?qs=9lcNTSmDlCpDFNJ8GRf7eQ%3D%3D https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Western-Design-Center-WD... https://octopart.com/w65c816s6tqg-14-western+design+center-76928427 https://octopart.com/w65c816s6tqg-14-western+design+center-7... The other half is a standard chinese ~$30 XC6SLX16 +32MB DDR3 dev board. https://www.fpga-cookbook.com/xilinx-development-boards/xilinx-spartan6-xc6slx16/qmtech-spartan-6-xc6slx16-ddr3-core-board/ https://www.fpga-cookbook.com/xilinx-development-boards/xili... https://github.com/ChinaQMTECH/QM_XC6SLX16_DDR3/blob/master/QM_XC6SLX16_DDR3-User_Manual_V2.pdf https://github.com/ChinaQMTECH/QM_XC6SLX16_DDR3/blob/master/...
ncmncm 5y ago
I like the version of this idea where they have a 200 MHz microcontroller on a little circuit board running a 65816 emulator much faster than a real 65816 can run, and using the microcontroller's GPIO pins to work the lines attached to the 65816 socket pins. It evokes the image of the wasp plugged into a cockroach's nervous system, driving it helplessly to the wasp's nest. But in a good way.
- jchw 5y ago
  Can you actually do that with GPIO pins, or would that be too high latency/jitter? Even if so, it seems like a job that would be done much more efficiently by an FPGA, though I'd guess the reason why nobody does is because there's probably other stuff tied to the clock that can't run that fast. Or does this already exist? The concept sounds cool.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    It popped up on HN pretty recently. A 1 MHz bus is slow enough to operate entirely from the microcontroller's interrupt handler. The native CPU clock pin would be wired directly to the interrupt input to keep it synchronized. One wonderful feature was that it all fit on a circuit board the same size as the original CPU package. As I recall, it had a mode where it would copy all the slow main board RAM contents into the microcontroller RAM, and run extra fast from there, using the bus only for I/O. Seems like it must have a way to designate certain parts of the program to run at cycle-accurate native speed, e.g. to operate the Apple ][ floppy controller. You could of course do it all with an FPGA, but that would seem more like work.
    - PaulHoule 5y ago
      I have seen S100 boards with a rather low performance AVR8 bangs bits on the bus with GPIO.
thorin1 5y ago
Oh, that's for Apple IIGS. Is there anything that can accelerate my super-slow 2019 MacBook Pro?
- throwaway69123 5y ago
  Better software
- yitchelle 5y ago
  Upgrade to an Apple IIGS
  - technothrasher 5y ago
    Speaking of upgrading to an Apple IIgs, I remember in high school in 1987 my school wanted to upgrade a classroom that had a few IIe machines to a bunch of IIgs. I begged and pleaded with them not to do it, to go with Mac's or even better PCs, as the IIgs was obvious to me even at the time as a dead end and a room full of them was a huge waste of money. They just accused me of being 'radical and embittered against Apple' because I had an Amiga 2000 at the time that I evangelized for quite a bit. I didn't quite understand their argument, as I had a II+ at home that I still used and enjoyed, and was pushing for Mac's as a viable alternative to the IIgs. Anyway, they ran a big capital campaign and got the parents to donate a ton of money to buy all these machines. Within a year, they were collecting dust and the school bought a bunch of Mac Plus's and a few PS/2's which got used extensively. That incident was my first lesson on the propensity of people to obstinately make stupid decisions, and so I always associate the IIgs with that concept. But so that people now don't think I am 'embittered' against the IIgs, I do actually own two of them currently :)
    - tawaypol 5y ago
      It's a shame Apple killed the Apple ][ line. I would have loved to see what a 32 bit Apple ][ would look like.
      - gecko 5y ago
Dwedit 5y ago
Why not run the processor on the FPGA?
- rasz 5y ago
  Nostalgia, longing for authenticity. Realization a simple mouse port converter adapting USB mice to work in Amiga/Atari ST has more computing power than the computer it is used with is painful to retro enthusiasts.
  - zxcvbn4038 5y ago
    My first computer used a Motorola 6809 processor, one day I opened a fire panel at work and there were sixteen of those monitoring the sensors and making the lights blink. Looked like they were driving everything with the cpus directly, didn’t see much else besides power, ram/rom, and screw terminals. Sad end for a great little processor.
- tom_ 5y ago
  Same reason you don't use a modern computer in the first place!
- StillBored 5y ago
  Thats sorta my question too, as evidenced by the graphics, its barely faster than a transwarpGS (which is 30 year old hardware). Sure its a lot cheaper at this point because it seems transwarps are in high demand. OTOH, I'm pretty sure you can get an FPGA to emulate a 65816 significantly faster than 16Mhz, not including the fact that making it OoO/etc might drive the IPC way up.
HNHatesUsers 5y ago
Epiphany21 5y ago
Absolutely beautiful. I love to see these FPGA accelerator cards being used as drop-in replacements for retro systems. This makes me wonder if it's possible to make these into PCIe cards for a normal PC that would provide hardware-assisted emulation. It would be especially nice for emulating more advanced machines like PowerPC Macs.

92 points by pcr910303 5y ago

pkaye 5y ago

Should have been called Apple Juice.

wang_li 5y ago

The about dialog says copyright -2015. Apple was releasing patches/versions of the Apple IIgs OS until 2015?

SkyArrow 5y ago
6.0.2 is an unofficial community release. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIGS#System_Software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIGS#System_Software

corysama 5y ago

Similar accelerator for the Commodore 64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCPU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9clez2fxxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9clez2fxxw

erickhill 5y ago

Me: OMG the Apple Retro Brains are finally getting into the game! (checks the shop) "Out of Stock" :(

kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
It’s like trying to get concert tickets for your favorite band’s farewell tour.
dylan604 5y ago
"Out of Stock" looks so much better than "Coming Soon". Like having a long queue of people outside of the nightclub to make it look popular.
rasz 5y ago
they are out of stock on W65C816S6TQG-14 chips. WDC is a very small player and they probably do die manufacturing runs every couple of years and then package according to the demand. Surprisingly Mouser has 24 chips in stock with more "promised" very soon https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Western-Design-Center-WDC/W65C816S6TQG-14?qs=9lcNTSmDlCpDFNJ8GRf7eQ%3D%3D https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Western-Design-Center-WD... https://octopart.com/w65c816s6tqg-14-western+design+center-76928427 https://octopart.com/w65c816s6tqg-14-western+design+center-7... The other half is a standard chinese ~$30 XC6SLX16 +32MB DDR3 dev board. https://www.fpga-cookbook.com/xilinx-development-boards/xilinx-spartan6-xc6slx16/qmtech-spartan-6-xc6slx16-ddr3-core-board/ https://www.fpga-cookbook.com/xilinx-development-boards/xili... https://github.com/ChinaQMTECH/QM_XC6SLX16_DDR3/blob/master/QM_XC6SLX16_DDR3-User_Manual_V2.pdf https://github.com/ChinaQMTECH/QM_XC6SLX16_DDR3/blob/master/...

ncmncm 5y ago

I like the version of this idea where they have a 200 MHz microcontroller on a little circuit board running a 65816 emulator much faster than a real 65816 can run, and using the microcontroller's GPIO pins to work the lines attached to the 65816 socket pins. It evokes the image of the wasp plugged into a cockroach's nervous system, driving it helplessly to the wasp's nest. But in a good way.

jchw 5y ago
Can you actually do that with GPIO pins, or would that be too high latency/jitter? Even if so, it seems like a job that would be done much more efficiently by an FPGA, though I'd guess the reason why nobody does is because there's probably other stuff tied to the clock that can't run that fast. Or does this already exist? The concept sounds cool.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  It popped up on HN pretty recently. A 1 MHz bus is slow enough to operate entirely from the microcontroller's interrupt handler. The native CPU clock pin would be wired directly to the interrupt input to keep it synchronized. One wonderful feature was that it all fit on a circuit board the same size as the original CPU package. As I recall, it had a mode where it would copy all the slow main board RAM contents into the microcontroller RAM, and run extra fast from there, using the bus only for I/O. Seems like it must have a way to designate certain parts of the program to run at cycle-accurate native speed, e.g. to operate the Apple ][ floppy controller. You could of course do it all with an FPGA, but that would seem more like work.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    I have seen S100 boards with a rather low performance AVR8 bangs bits on the bus with GPIO.

thorin1 5y ago

Oh, that's for Apple IIGS. Is there anything that can accelerate my super-slow 2019 MacBook Pro?

throwaway69123 5y ago
Better software
yitchelle 5y ago
Upgrade to an Apple IIGS
- technothrasher 5y ago
  Speaking of upgrading to an Apple IIgs, I remember in high school in 1987 my school wanted to upgrade a classroom that had a few IIe machines to a bunch of IIgs. I begged and pleaded with them not to do it, to go with Mac's or even better PCs, as the IIgs was obvious to me even at the time as a dead end and a room full of them was a huge waste of money. They just accused me of being 'radical and embittered against Apple' because I had an Amiga 2000 at the time that I evangelized for quite a bit. I didn't quite understand their argument, as I had a II+ at home that I still used and enjoyed, and was pushing for Mac's as a viable alternative to the IIgs. Anyway, they ran a big capital campaign and got the parents to donate a ton of money to buy all these machines. Within a year, they were collecting dust and the school bought a bunch of Mac Plus's and a few PS/2's which got used extensively. That incident was my first lesson on the propensity of people to obstinately make stupid decisions, and so I always associate the IIgs with that concept. But so that people now don't think I am 'embittered' against the IIgs, I do actually own two of them currently :)
  - tawaypol 5y ago
    It's a shame Apple killed the Apple ][ line. I would have loved to see what a 32 bit Apple ][ would look like.
    - gecko 5y ago

Dwedit 5y ago

Why not run the processor on the FPGA?

rasz 5y ago
Nostalgia, longing for authenticity. Realization a simple mouse port converter adapting USB mice to work in Amiga/Atari ST has more computing power than the computer it is used with is painful to retro enthusiasts.
- zxcvbn4038 5y ago
  My first computer used a Motorola 6809 processor, one day I opened a fire panel at work and there were sixteen of those monitoring the sensors and making the lights blink. Looked like they were driving everything with the cpus directly, didn’t see much else besides power, ram/rom, and screw terminals. Sad end for a great little processor.
tom_ 5y ago
Same reason you don't use a modern computer in the first place!
StillBored 5y ago
Thats sorta my question too, as evidenced by the graphics, its barely faster than a transwarpGS (which is 30 year old hardware). Sure its a lot cheaper at this point because it seems transwarps are in high demand. OTOH, I'm pretty sure you can get an FPGA to emulate a 65816 significantly faster than 16Mhz, not including the fact that making it OoO/etc might drive the IPC way up.

HNHatesUsers 5y ago

Epiphany21 5y ago

Absolutely beautiful. I love to see these FPGA accelerator cards being used as drop-in replacements for retro systems. This makes me wonder if it's possible to make these into PCIe cards for a normal PC that would provide hardware-assisted emulation. It would be especially nice for emulating more advanced machines like PowerPC Macs.