5 ms·

What a load of crock. My elderly father, terminal illness, was hit by the lockdown days before coming to visit us. He DOES NOT CARE about covid. He is dying any

What a load of crock. My elderly father, terminal illness, was hit by the lockdown days before coming to visit us. He DOES NOT CARE about covid. He is dying anyways. Then they wouldn't let our young son go play with friends or play on beach. This is lifetime impact stuff at 2-3. When I wore an N95 mask I was told over and over it didn't help. Hello, it's an airborne disease, why wouldn't my mask help? So we can't wear an N95, we CAN go to crowded grocery stores, we CAN'T go outside to the beach (huge volume of onshore fresh air and sunshine) and school is remote only (for a 2 year old this is TERRIBLE). Worst of all, despite the talk of being "science driven" they have not been releasing age banded fatality rates by variant and a timely basis so folks can make informed decisions. We got fed so much BS that the hit is going to be very long lasting in terms of credibility of the "establishment". My father has a phd in a hard science. My wife has a phd in a hard science. If you are losing these folks, you are losing LOTS of folks. That makes me wonder, what IS the fatality rate for 5 year olds. Seriously give me a table. Is it lower than just random accidents per 100? Finally, why can't I wear a mask (N95 with ventilator) that is comfortable so easier to wear and protects me. ANd others can make their own decisions. Instead we spent huge amounts of effort trying to force people who may not have believed in mask wearing to wear masks, but these masks (cloth / surgical) were I suspect largely ineffective.

Apocryphon 5y ago
How do masks work on the flu virus but not on COVID https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00642-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00642-4 It sounds like you have been dealing with a lot of ineffective health theater. That is unfortunate. But that's a very different thing from "cloth/surgical masks are largely ineffective".
- onphonenow 5y ago
  Sure. We are told that an N95 with a vent is "ineffective" and prohibited, but someone wearing a bandana is OK. That at least was the guidance for a long time. So based on this, the cloth masks, bandana's, gators etc need to BEAT an N95 with an exhalation valve to be considered effective. Of course, it turns out that an N95 with an exhalation valve is VERY good at protecting the wearer, and AS GOOD as all these others at protecting others. "The findings in this report are based on tests of 13 FFR models from 10 different manufacturers. These findings show that FFRs with an exhalation valve provide respiratory protection to the wearer and can also reduce particle emissions to levels similar to or better than those provided by surgical masks, procedure masks, or cloth face coverings." https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html "An N95 filtering facepiece respirator will protect you and provide source control to protect others. A NIOSH-approved N95 filtering facepiece respirator with an exhalation valve offers the same protection to the wearer as one that does not have a valve. As source control, findings from NIOSH research suggest that, even without covering the valve, N95 respirators with exhalation valves provide the same or better source control than surgical masks, procedure masks, cloth masks, or fabric coverings." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use... So, my elderly parents trying to fly United Airlines are BANNED from wearing a comfortable N95 with an exhalation valve that would do a GREAT job protecting them. Instead they are told to wear a surgical mask (which does relatively little by comparison to a well fit N95) especially on INHALATION, where a surgical mask often passes air long the sides. And they sit next to folks barely wearing a light cloth mask that may no almost nothing. Again, why not let folks make their own decisions? Concerned? At high risk? Let my elderly parents wear an N95 with exhalation valve, they can wear that comfortably for 3-4 hours if needed. Instead it is this theatre just as you describe, but based on so little actual research (and so unwilling to change with new research) that it is crazy.
  - Nemrod67 5y ago
    As you can see, there is no more discussion possible with people that caught the mental version of Covid, much to my dismay
    - onphonenow 5y ago
      I literally cite the CDC on masks with exhalation valves, and this is the "mental version of COVID". I get it, I've been lectured to by folks like you repeatedly. And this is where public health credibility goes to die. There seems to be a crazy desire of public health folks to preach and be surprior, put down others, even though their advice has been so wrong, and many of them are wrong on the actual science, the risks, the tradeoffs.
      - Nemrod67 5y ago
        you misread me, or I wasnt clear. I think we just lived through 2 years of collective madness. And this doesnt bode well for us if we ever get a real pandemic going (black plague style).
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    As I understand it, masks with exhalation valves only exist because that design works fine for masks intended to protect the wearer from spray-paint (and similar industrial hazards). That design was never meant for use in a respiratory pandemic. There's no shortage of normal (no valve) N95/N99 masks. > based on this, the cloth masks, bandana's, gators etc need to BEAT an N95 with an exhalation valve to be considered effective A good point, but it's not the only perspective on this. If we consider that only some proportion of the population will be wearing N95/N99 masks, it benefits everyone to insist that those masks not have valves. Of course, if people aren't fully aware of the rules ahead of time, this is undermined. Or a less utilitarian angle: to deliberately build (or buy) a mask with an exhalation valve is to deliberately introduce a feature which increases risk to other people, for no appreciable upside. There should be real push-back against these designs. Seems to me the airlines/airports would do well to offer a vending machine of non-valve N95/N99 masks at reasonable prices. Do any of them do that?
- nradov 5y ago
  Cloth / surgical masks are largely ineffective. I recommend you listen to the explanations by infectious disease experts Dr. Monica Gandhi and Dr. Michael Osterholm. https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VSukFrMYGae1ILd0e4HuR?si=FEwYWMPWQ72FwsqddgKung https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VSukFrMYGae1ILd0e4HuR?si=F...
  - onphonenow 5y ago
    Thanks. Hospitals are still requiring you take off N95 masks and put on surgical masks. It's very annoying (having been in them a bit recently for elderly relatives, new baby etc).
- PathOfEclipse 5y ago
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    I have been dealt with nothing, I am simply asking questions. It is impolite to make such cavalier assumptions about the person you are speaking with.
    - PathOfEclipse 5y ago

Apocryphon 5y ago

How do masks work on the flu virus but not on COVID https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00642-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00642-4 It sounds like you have been dealing with a lot of ineffective health theater. That is unfortunate. But that's a very different thing from "cloth/surgical masks are largely ineffective".

onphonenow 5y ago
Sure. We are told that an N95 with a vent is "ineffective" and prohibited, but someone wearing a bandana is OK. That at least was the guidance for a long time. So based on this, the cloth masks, bandana's, gators etc need to BEAT an N95 with an exhalation valve to be considered effective. Of course, it turns out that an N95 with an exhalation valve is VERY good at protecting the wearer, and AS GOOD as all these others at protecting others. "The findings in this report are based on tests of 13 FFR models from 10 different manufacturers. These findings show that FFRs with an exhalation valve provide respiratory protection to the wearer and can also reduce particle emissions to levels similar to or better than those provided by surgical masks, procedure masks, or cloth face coverings." https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html "An N95 filtering facepiece respirator will protect you and provide source control to protect others. A NIOSH-approved N95 filtering facepiece respirator with an exhalation valve offers the same protection to the wearer as one that does not have a valve. As source control, findings from NIOSH research suggest that, even without covering the valve, N95 respirators with exhalation valves provide the same or better source control than surgical masks, procedure masks, cloth masks, or fabric coverings." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use... So, my elderly parents trying to fly United Airlines are BANNED from wearing a comfortable N95 with an exhalation valve that would do a GREAT job protecting them. Instead they are told to wear a surgical mask (which does relatively little by comparison to a well fit N95) especially on INHALATION, where a surgical mask often passes air long the sides. And they sit next to folks barely wearing a light cloth mask that may no almost nothing. Again, why not let folks make their own decisions? Concerned? At high risk? Let my elderly parents wear an N95 with exhalation valve, they can wear that comfortably for 3-4 hours if needed. Instead it is this theatre just as you describe, but based on so little actual research (and so unwilling to change with new research) that it is crazy.
- Nemrod67 5y ago
  As you can see, there is no more discussion possible with people that caught the mental version of Covid, much to my dismay
  - onphonenow 5y ago
    I literally cite the CDC on masks with exhalation valves, and this is the "mental version of COVID". I get it, I've been lectured to by folks like you repeatedly. And this is where public health credibility goes to die. There seems to be a crazy desire of public health folks to preach and be surprior, put down others, even though their advice has been so wrong, and many of them are wrong on the actual science, the risks, the tradeoffs.
    - Nemrod67 5y ago
      you misread me, or I wasnt clear. I think we just lived through 2 years of collective madness. And this doesnt bode well for us if we ever get a real pandemic going (black plague style).
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  As I understand it, masks with exhalation valves only exist because that design works fine for masks intended to protect the wearer from spray-paint (and similar industrial hazards). That design was never meant for use in a respiratory pandemic. There's no shortage of normal (no valve) N95/N99 masks. > based on this, the cloth masks, bandana's, gators etc need to BEAT an N95 with an exhalation valve to be considered effective A good point, but it's not the only perspective on this. If we consider that only some proportion of the population will be wearing N95/N99 masks, it benefits everyone to insist that those masks not have valves. Of course, if people aren't fully aware of the rules ahead of time, this is undermined. Or a less utilitarian angle: to deliberately build (or buy) a mask with an exhalation valve is to deliberately introduce a feature which increases risk to other people, for no appreciable upside. There should be real push-back against these designs. Seems to me the airlines/airports would do well to offer a vending machine of non-valve N95/N99 masks at reasonable prices. Do any of them do that?
nradov 5y ago
Cloth / surgical masks are largely ineffective. I recommend you listen to the explanations by infectious disease experts Dr. Monica Gandhi and Dr. Michael Osterholm. https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VSukFrMYGae1ILd0e4HuR?si=FEwYWMPWQ72FwsqddgKung https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VSukFrMYGae1ILd0e4HuR?si=F...
- onphonenow 5y ago
  Thanks. Hospitals are still requiring you take off N95 masks and put on surgical masks. It's very annoying (having been in them a bit recently for elderly relatives, new baby etc).
PathOfEclipse 5y ago
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  I have been dealt with nothing, I am simply asking questions. It is impolite to make such cavalier assumptions about the person you are speaking with.
  - PathOfEclipse 5y ago