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...which is not that surprising, because in the US more women than men have graduated from college over the past two decades (roughly): https://www.pewresearch
by cs702 5y ago
...which is not that surprising, because in the US more women than men have graduated from college over the past two decades (roughly):
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ft_2021.11.08_highered_01.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ft_20...
In other words, this is a predictable consequence of the growing female-male gap in college enrollment and graduation rates:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behin...
- zitterbewegung 5y agoAlso,the male participation rate is decreasing see https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001
- estro0182 5y agoThis chart is insane. I wonder what combination of phenomena this data can be explained by?
- zitterbewegung 5y agoThere is no existing explanation because it is invariant under recessions and other events. The only change that you can see is COVID.
- hackernewds 5y agoWouldn't increasing labor participation by women displace, and also counteract the need for, male labor participation?
- zitterbewegung 5y agoYou are assuming that the amount of jobs are zero sum and I don't think we can answer that question. There are situations where there doesn't have to be displacement such as producing goods faster that require more and more people have to sell the item productive. But, if we would assume that people keep on getting more and more productive due to corporations optimizing for productivity wouldn't we see a drop off of both women and men at the same time? I don't think we would legitimately seem the existing of displacement but actually mutual decreasing.
- c22 5y agoIt might not be zero-sum but someone still has to raise the kids. I'd imagine we'd see dads dropping out of the workforce any time the mom makes more and dad's income doesn't more than cover full time 3rd party childcare.
- phil21 5y agoI was curious about this and looked into it some. Unfortunately couldn't find any source material reliable or concise enough for me to consider linking here - but my overall take on the data is that stay at home dads certainly increased in number, but nowhere near the change these graphs depict. Numbers vary, but even as of today there are low-single-digit millions of stay at home fathers (under the liberal definition of "18+ male with children in the home who does not work") vs. about ~1m total in the late 80's. Seems like it may account for a point or two on the graphs, but not much more.
- sokoloff 5y agoNote also that it’s the lower earner’s income after paying the marginal income tax rate on it (when analyzing “what if they quit their job to stay at home?”, marginal, not average, tax rate drives the decision). For a high-earning couple in a high-tax state, this could be ~50%.
- klyrs 5y ago> It might not be zero-sum but someone still has to raise the kids. In generations past, that was done by women who were counted as not having a job (despite working longer hours than their husbands, 7 days a week). That doesn't need to be the case -- and in fact, dual-income households can create jobs: cleaners, cooks (delivery drivers etc), and childcare. In my grandma's generation, a woman's household duties also included gardening and preserving foods, and making/repairing clothes -- but those jobs have been outsourced so completely that they're now seen as quirky hobbies.
- watwut 5y agoCovid job losses were more on women side then male side. (Partly due to kids and partly due to women being more in service sector that lost more jobs)
- Izkata 5y agoBarely. 3.2% vs 3.3%, per https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001 and https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y agoI'd guess two of several factors: - Loss of manufacturing jobs since 1950, primarily held by men - Women's increasing participation in the labor force https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/03/women-in-the-labor-force/ https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/03/women-in-the-labor-f...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ZeroGravitas 5y agoI'm not sure exactly how this particular number is calculated but given the fairly consistent trend I'd suggest longer education before employment, earlier retirement and retired people not dying as early seem likely. Some other people think it's women entering the workforce, but that not a 1 for 1 affect here and it seems women have possibly hit a similar downward point.: https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/03/women-in-the-labor-force https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/03/women-in-the-labor-f...
- Msw242 5y agoImagine how much work it would take to maintain a household without a dishwasher, or a washing machine, or a vacuum cleaner, or febreeze, or modern medicine, or... We have significantly decreased the cost of chores. They are still extremely painful, but 1/10 the burden they used to be.
- yakubin 5y agoKeep in mind that the lower bound on this chart is 65%, not 0. Threw me off at first.
- yobbo 5y agoHonestly, (young) women in the workplace generally make for a better experience. They typically care more about creating a nice friendly atmosphere. Young men (used to) bring assertiveness and a created an atmosphere of competition. Maybe these roles aren't so clearly divided any more. For the vast number of job positions, it doesn't matter much in terms of competence who gets the job. It matters so much more that the coworkers are comfortable and enjoy the workplace. Men had obvious advantage in physically demanding jobs, but fewer and fewer of these remain.
- hu3 5y agoIt's funny. At three places I worked at, I often heard from women that they preferred to work with men "because they are easier going, more honest and their mood is more stable". I as a man, prefer to work with women. I've met some remarkable women and learned a lot from them and not only in tech.
- oh_sigh 5y agoYour post is just "Let me tell you about the stereotypes I hold".
- krastanov 5y agoI think it is a bit more complicated than just a stereotype. "Women bringing a different, less adversarial, work culture" is a trope present in the works of some feminist activist, DEI workshop facilitators, and sociological researchers. Usually it is phrased more as "we should be more accepting of workstyles that differ from the dominant workstyle", where the dominant workstyle happens to be associated with our current stereotypes about masculinity. This is definitely a difficult to discuss topic where you really need to steelman what you hear, otherwise the conversation quickly devolves.
- yobbo 5y agoBut that doesn't mean it is invalid when making sense of observations and phenomena. Stereotype is just another word for "expectations based on experiences". It's not claimed to be finite absolute truth.
- Zamicol 5y agoThe participation rate for women: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002
- hackernewds 5y agoThis is eye opening
- andi999 5y agoHeard this a while back, basically total number of jobs stays the same, so more women work less men work. It was mentioned that this is not videly discussed (by political parties e. g), since non of them have a political agende which would/could/wants to change that.
- JamesBarney 5y agoThis is caused by increasing education and a aging workforce. You should look at the prime age employment participation rate https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060
- zitterbewegung 5y agoDoesn’t that create a bubble of people that are unable to get a job because the aging workforce will retain jobs longer and the time for people to get educated just increases ?
- lordnacho 5y agoAnd degree jobs tend to be in big cities like NYC, DC, and LA, which are the ones that are mentioned.
- option 5y agoSo the causal link, at least in US, seems to be education->earnings, not gender->earning (which is a correlation).
- zmgsabst 5y agoThis was always the case. The purported wage gap was always a manifestation of other facts like aggregate job choice, as shown in the death gap — that men die 10x as often in the workplace, according to BLS statistics. https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006_13.pdf https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006_13.pdf
- mistrial9 5y agothe casual link also includes behavior like following directions over time, not challenging authority structures and participating in team oriented work being monetarily rewarded, while other social behavior like breaking and establishing territory or unique solutions, are suppressed via market signals. Corporations collectively with fewer employees, are the most profitable in the West as they have been in seventy years, so those that can take what they are handed, play by the rules, and not make waves are rewarded (at their level). Never mind the big picture, not for the likes of you.
- amyjess 5y agoThe wage gap is largely a function of how women are expected to be the primary caregivers of children. Here's a detailed article that goes into these things: https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16268362/gender-wage-gap-explained https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16268362/gender-wage-gap-explai... It makes sense that young women would earn more, but the gender-wage gap appears once you get into middle age as by that point childrearing expectations have destroyed women's careers.
- kaczordon 5y agoIt’s not about expectations. Many women also want to have children(and raise them) and a side effect of that is being out of the workforce for some time. Most people hate their jobs[1] and not everyone wants to work a 9-5. Raising a child can actually be more fulfilling than working for a tax filing company for example. [1] https://www.staffsquared.com/blog/why-85-of-people-hate-their-jobs/ https://www.staffsquared.com/blog/why-85-of-people-hate-thei...
- DantesKite 5y agoI wonder what's driving this phenomena.
- anonu 5y agoI don't think there's any one reason: its a confluence of societal, economic and cultural shifts and perceptions about higher education. Many men don't feel they need more education. Costs of education are too high and some men prefer to get going to support themselves and their families.
- notfromhere 5y agoLet's be honest, too many men think education is an effeminate pursuit. Lots of anti-intellectualism running around
- langitbiru 5y agoWe had a lively discussion about this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28436836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28436836
- hn_throwaway_99 5y agoI would hypothesize that modern education and careers put specific male traits at a disadvantage. Some specific examples: men are diagnosed with ADHD at 3-4 times the rate of women. There is a clear (and hopefully obvious) association with testosterone levels and aggression. While these traits can be advantageous in some situations, modern education often requires sitting still and focusing for hours.
- goto11 5y ago> modern education often requires sitting still and focusing for hours. Is that a modern phenomenon? At what point in history didn't college level and higher education require sitting still and focusing?
- 5y ago
- ip26 5y agoAre you sure? College education is dropping as a predictor of income, especially in the degrees with the highest female:male ratios. Increasing numbers of women graduating with degrees in journalism and poetry would probably not explain an increase in income for women.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- godelski 5y agoIt's only surprising because people just repeat pay gap statistics and don't learn about them (I believe there are non good faith actors promoting this). Pay gap for men and women only starts mid career. But this isn't the 80c on the dollar pay gap (that's median male earnings vs female). It's usually in the 90c range (iirc 93c is the median and even Uber found a pay gap in this range). There's also the glass ceiling. But neither of these things have a smoking gun to them. They are hard to solve and going to require a lot of us to start talking about them. So I'm not sure why we only discuss median gender earnings, which isn't a great way to discuss fairness. It's especially bad when we discuss median gender wages as if they are controlling for variables (like the 90c+ gap does, which you see in part of this data). But don't let the bad discussion of median earnings prevent a discussion over the actual phenomena that exist. Edit: there's a lot I didn't say here, I'm glad others are adding more. But let's also try to be nuanced because it is a complicated topic. I also wanted to plug a podcast "The Pay Check" which goes in depth into these issues, including attempts to solve them. It's from the perspective of economics (by Bloomberg) and discusses all the common misconceptions like child rearing.
- JamesBarney 5y agoMy understanding is most of the mid career pay gap is due to women prioritizing child rearing over career. There's a conundrum where you either have to respect women's choices and see the mid career pay gap as inevitable, or see women's desire to be prioritize child rearing over career as internalized misogyny.
- daenz 5y agoI've seen the argument that women having and raising children should result in no interruptions of their career growth or earnings.
- jldugger 5y agoProbably the better faith argument is that it should impact both genders equally, but it's a lot harder problem to solve, with multiple layers of interaction in a dynamic system.
- whathappenedto 5y agoDoesn't that go counter to what is usually posted, about how college is a financially poor decision, whereas trades are particularly lucrative now? As far as I know, trades are still almost mostly men, so if this were true, we'd see the opposite trend.
- JamesBarney 5y agoThe average college graduate still makes more than your average plumber. The issue is at the margin there are a lot of kids going to college who are wasting their time. But still most of the kids in college are making a good financial decision even if all of the aren't.
- randomdata 5y ago> But still most of the kids in college are making a good financial decision even if all of the aren't. Not likely. The data continues to show that incomes are stagnant. If there was a financial benefit, not just filtering, incomes should be rising alongside the rise of college attainment. The filtering effect is real. Colleges put a lot of effort into rejecting people who aren't "born successful" to maintain an aura of prestige. Colleges pumping out graduates with severe mental disabilities that hinder learning, for example, would not serve the brand well. The model only works if you limit the possibility of graduation to those considered the "best of the best". The same people who are more likely to do well in their careers. There being an income spectrum, with some making a lot of money, and some making very little, predates the existence of college. The decline in college attainment among males no doubt comes on the back of colleges recognizing that males are now less valuable in society (i.e. they are less likely to be among the best of the best) and apply the appropriate filters in response, not the other way around.
- ModernMech 5y agoIt's an interesting theory, but how do you explain associates degree holders having higher lifetime earnings than high school diploma holders? Surely community colleges can't be found guilty of being prestige factories that filter out poor performing students.
- mostertoaster 5y agoThe pay gap in this case can be explained. But if the larger pay gap we fight over is explained, that explanation is dismissed because it doesn’t fit the narrative. The facts don’t matter. What story the facts tell, and what story is heard and believed, does.
- cascom 5y agoExcept if you look where the gap is the widest, it’s places that have high paying blue collar jobs in heavy industry that are the big employers and male dominated (e.g Odessa, TX = oilfield, Beaumont, TX = Refining and petrochemical, Houma, LA = offshore oil and gas, etc,), so at least at the local level I think it’s driven more by what are the pervasive high paying industries and are they tilted largely to one gender…
- GoodJokes 5y ago
- Siira 5y agoThis gap exists in other countries, in which men still earn more.
- knighthack 5y agoIf it's not that surprising, then we should ready to accept that the whole gender wage gap thing is a myth, rather than to keep trumping it up as a reality.