5 ms·

‘Sovereign chess’ is a battle without loyalty or humanity (2020)

185 points by amichail 5y ago

forum_ghost 5y ago
Finally, a game that teaches principles of realpolitik?
- tmsbrg 5y ago
  That would be Diplomacy [0] Worth trying out online for example through webDiplomacy [1]. It's my favourite game. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game) [1] https://webdiplomacy.net/ https://webdiplomacy.net/
  - zzzzzzzza 5y ago
    try dominions 5
    - kibwen 5y ago
      There's no point in playing Dominions unless you join one of the online communities of hardcore Dominions players, because as a singleplayer game it's terrible and (unlike Diplomacy) you can't learn the rules in five minutes (or five years), so any casual group will bounce off of its abstruse interface within a handful of turns. Once you get in with some of the hardcore players you will indeed find that it's Diplomacy raised to the tenth power, but you have no hope of ever winning any game unless you're a serious no-lifer.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    I would play this more often but I’m running out of friends.
    - aidenn0 5y ago
      Assuming this is a "diplomacy destroys friendships" joke... Games are a place where we can see culture clash in the small. My sister didn't speak to me for days after, having folded to a bluff in poker, she flipped over my hand and called me a cheater. To any poker player, my behavior was fine and she would be way out of line for revealing my cards. On the other hand, I was intentionally misleading a family member for personal gain at their expense, which away from the poker table would be a huge breach of trust
      - cjbgkagh 5y ago
        It’s a short version of I’m running out of friends to play diplomacy with. Not everyone likes realpolitik as much as I do. In poker the adversarial aspect is clearer. In diplomacy you have to develop trust to later exploit it by breaking alliances and traitorously conspiring with enemies in a way that guarantees your former allies loss. The betrayal is more acute in a way that feels more fundamental. Telling them that they were naïve for trusting you and they must do the same if they want to win tends not to go down so well.
        lupire 5y ago
        My question is it possible to be good at Diplomacy without being a socio opath in real life. In poker, someone being good at bluffing is scary (separately from just being better at the math part), much like someone being better than you at sports is physically intimidating off the field because they could beat you up. Diplomacy even more so than poker, because manipulation and deceipt is the only skill in the game. It doesn't even have the cooperative part of the real world's "build something of value together" -- it's a zero sum or negative sum game.
        cjbgkagh 5y ago
        It is Kissinger’s favorite game. The people I do play with tend to enjoy the departure from normality. One guy I play with is very loyal in real life but will betray as soon as possible in game - too soon so it is actually sub optimal play but for a different reason (newbies are too trusting and think they can hold alliances into late game). Compartmentalization is needed to keep playing - or be a sociopath. I have ADHD and I feel that my emotional responses are learned rather than entirely natural. I think it makes me an effective lier - but I still don’t like doing it. I do enjoy introducing realpolitik to friends, helping them understand the palpable paranoia of eminent betrayal and how essential it is to maintain strength (the weakest get ganged up in). It’s one thing to read about the mechanics of realpolitik it’s another to emotionally feel them. For a deceptively simple game I’ve had friends stop playing because they found it too intense and damaging to their faith in humanity.
  - ekanes 5y ago
    What a fantastic game it is. Thanks for that link, maybe I’ll play again.
  - tempestn 5y ago
    Have you played on playdiplomacy.com as well? I've played a few games there, but haven't tried webdiplomacy. Curious how they compare.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  A long time ago I played Galaxy Plus - a variant of Galaxy PBEM game with simple rules and a galaxy full of races controlled by humans - 50 players start a game, 1-3 win in the end. It was one of the most intense gaming experience I have ever had. With 3 turns per week, a single game could last for a year, and to win you had to be a good diplomat to not get swarmed by your neighbors. It also taught me a lot about politics.
amichail 5y ago
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/SovereignChess/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/SovereignChess/videos
- armchairhacker 5y ago
  Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhq7oppTUuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhq7oppTUuc, this guy does a lot of other board games too.
- 7373737373 5y ago
  Can't find any videos of people actually playing it
iliekcomputers 5y ago
Chess variants are very interesting. It'd be very nice if someone could build an online version of this actually.
bondarchuk 5y ago
See also the recent review in Abstract Games magazine: https://www.abstractgames.org/gamereview23.html https://www.abstractgames.org/gamereview23.html
gleenn 5y ago
That just seems like a crazy amount of pieces and complexity. It looks cool but god strategy must be so hard. If you have played people who start taking long times to think through moves, I feel like this would basically lock people up for hours.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  I was going to say the same thing. The problem with creating complications is you need a fairly large ecosystem to ensure that you discover (through people playing) the many intricate strategic situations that can happen. It's like when you play civilization and there's a zillion ways to win, it leads to a lot of time being spent becoming even slightly familiar with the game.
- SovereignChess 5y ago
  On a player's opening move, their possible move options are identical to traditional chess, since they only control the pieces of their color. As they land on color squares, the move options can increase, but for typical chess players, the learning curve is not too steep. Most games end in under 40 moves...
- 14u2c 5y ago
  Certainly true, but I think there's a niche audience that these kind of games cater to, and for those people a few hours is excellent. Not unlike video games such as Civilization I suppose.
- jrumbut 5y ago
  If it's unclear what a good strategy would even look like then you're down to playing by intuition and improvisation. It sounds fun in the way board games were fun as children, before anyone knew about an optimal strategy for this or that game.
JetAlone 5y ago
"But controlling one army through another army creates webs of puppet strings. It’s dangerous, because losing one piece can lose you control of that color and any colors that piece controlled." "Be prepared to notice you’re in check without knowing when it happened" This game looks cool, I'd definitely want to try it. However, the potential for long disorienting chains of command and confusion about who owns what through which pieces on which squares tells me that this should be a digital implementation. Maybe after plenty of experience with that, advanced players could successfully transition to a physical board. I think the card game Illuminati does a much more manageable job at creating factional oriented game pieces of which control can be gained and even change hands.
- kqr 5y ago
  Wouldn't the ambiguous chain of command be part of the charm of a game like this? Emphasises diplomatic ability.
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    Here diplomatic ability maps to legal deceit through misdirection. Illuminati has an option to enable any cheating that is not caught. I tried playing it that way with my friends once. Our table ended up feeling like a city of thieves.
mrintellectual 5y ago
I'm curious what an optimal strategy for playing such a complex game like this is (if it even exists). I also wonder how much of a role intuition plays, i.e. the ability for chess masters to "feel" whether or not positions are winning or losing.
MiddleEndian 5y ago
This game looks fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

185 points by amichail 5y ago

forum_ghost 5y ago

Finally, a game that teaches principles of realpolitik?

tmsbrg 5y ago
That would be Diplomacy [0] Worth trying out online for example through webDiplomacy [1]. It's my favourite game. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game) [1] https://webdiplomacy.net/ https://webdiplomacy.net/
- zzzzzzzza 5y ago
  try dominions 5
  - kibwen 5y ago
    There's no point in playing Dominions unless you join one of the online communities of hardcore Dominions players, because as a singleplayer game it's terrible and (unlike Diplomacy) you can't learn the rules in five minutes (or five years), so any casual group will bounce off of its abstruse interface within a handful of turns. Once you get in with some of the hardcore players you will indeed find that it's Diplomacy raised to the tenth power, but you have no hope of ever winning any game unless you're a serious no-lifer.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  I would play this more often but I’m running out of friends.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Assuming this is a "diplomacy destroys friendships" joke... Games are a place where we can see culture clash in the small. My sister didn't speak to me for days after, having folded to a bluff in poker, she flipped over my hand and called me a cheater. To any poker player, my behavior was fine and she would be way out of line for revealing my cards. On the other hand, I was intentionally misleading a family member for personal gain at their expense, which away from the poker table would be a huge breach of trust
    - cjbgkagh 5y ago
      It’s a short version of I’m running out of friends to play diplomacy with. Not everyone likes realpolitik as much as I do. In poker the adversarial aspect is clearer. In diplomacy you have to develop trust to later exploit it by breaking alliances and traitorously conspiring with enemies in a way that guarantees your former allies loss. The betrayal is more acute in a way that feels more fundamental. Telling them that they were naïve for trusting you and they must do the same if they want to win tends not to go down so well.
      - lupire 5y ago
        My question is it possible to be good at Diplomacy without being a socio opath in real life. In poker, someone being good at bluffing is scary (separately from just being better at the math part), much like someone being better than you at sports is physically intimidating off the field because they could beat you up. Diplomacy even more so than poker, because manipulation and deceipt is the only skill in the game. It doesn't even have the cooperative part of the real world's "build something of value together" -- it's a zero sum or negative sum game.
        cjbgkagh 5y ago
        It is Kissinger’s favorite game. The people I do play with tend to enjoy the departure from normality. One guy I play with is very loyal in real life but will betray as soon as possible in game - too soon so it is actually sub optimal play but for a different reason (newbies are too trusting and think they can hold alliances into late game). Compartmentalization is needed to keep playing - or be a sociopath. I have ADHD and I feel that my emotional responses are learned rather than entirely natural. I think it makes me an effective lier - but I still don’t like doing it. I do enjoy introducing realpolitik to friends, helping them understand the palpable paranoia of eminent betrayal and how essential it is to maintain strength (the weakest get ganged up in). It’s one thing to read about the mechanics of realpolitik it’s another to emotionally feel them. For a deceptively simple game I’ve had friends stop playing because they found it too intense and damaging to their faith in humanity.
- ekanes 5y ago
  What a fantastic game it is. Thanks for that link, maybe I’ll play again.
- tempestn 5y ago
  Have you played on playdiplomacy.com as well? I've played a few games there, but haven't tried webdiplomacy. Curious how they compare.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
A long time ago I played Galaxy Plus - a variant of Galaxy PBEM game with simple rules and a galaxy full of races controlled by humans - 50 players start a game, 1-3 win in the end. It was one of the most intense gaming experience I have ever had. With 3 turns per week, a single game could last for a year, and to win you had to be a good diplomat to not get swarmed by your neighbors. It also taught me a lot about politics.

amichail 5y ago

Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/SovereignChess/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/SovereignChess/videos

armchairhacker 5y ago
Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhq7oppTUuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhq7oppTUuc, this guy does a lot of other board games too.
7373737373 5y ago
Can't find any videos of people actually playing it

iliekcomputers 5y ago

Chess variants are very interesting. It'd be very nice if someone could build an online version of this actually.

bondarchuk 5y ago

See also the recent review in Abstract Games magazine: https://www.abstractgames.org/gamereview23.html https://www.abstractgames.org/gamereview23.html

gleenn 5y ago

That just seems like a crazy amount of pieces and complexity. It looks cool but god strategy must be so hard. If you have played people who start taking long times to think through moves, I feel like this would basically lock people up for hours.

lordnacho 5y ago
I was going to say the same thing. The problem with creating complications is you need a fairly large ecosystem to ensure that you discover (through people playing) the many intricate strategic situations that can happen. It's like when you play civilization and there's a zillion ways to win, it leads to a lot of time being spent becoming even slightly familiar with the game.
SovereignChess 5y ago
On a player's opening move, their possible move options are identical to traditional chess, since they only control the pieces of their color. As they land on color squares, the move options can increase, but for typical chess players, the learning curve is not too steep. Most games end in under 40 moves...
14u2c 5y ago
Certainly true, but I think there's a niche audience that these kind of games cater to, and for those people a few hours is excellent. Not unlike video games such as Civilization I suppose.
jrumbut 5y ago
If it's unclear what a good strategy would even look like then you're down to playing by intuition and improvisation. It sounds fun in the way board games were fun as children, before anyone knew about an optimal strategy for this or that game.

JetAlone 5y ago

"But controlling one army through another army creates webs of puppet strings. It’s dangerous, because losing one piece can lose you control of that color and any colors that piece controlled." "Be prepared to notice you’re in check without knowing when it happened" This game looks cool, I'd definitely want to try it. However, the potential for long disorienting chains of command and confusion about who owns what through which pieces on which squares tells me that this should be a digital implementation. Maybe after plenty of experience with that, advanced players could successfully transition to a physical board. I think the card game Illuminati does a much more manageable job at creating factional oriented game pieces of which control can be gained and even change hands.

kqr 5y ago
Wouldn't the ambiguous chain of command be part of the charm of a game like this? Emphasises diplomatic ability.
- JetAlone 5y ago
  Here diplomatic ability maps to legal deceit through misdirection. Illuminati has an option to enable any cheating that is not caught. I tried playing it that way with my friends once. Our table ended up feeling like a city of thieves.

mrintellectual 5y ago

I'm curious what an optimal strategy for playing such a complex game like this is (if it even exists). I also wonder how much of a role intuition plays, i.e. the ability for chess masters to "feel" whether or not positions are winning or losing.

MiddleEndian 5y ago

This game looks fantastic. Thanks for sharing.