15 ms·
When Mongols Set Out to Conquer the World, There Was One Limiting Factor: Grass
- simulate-me 5y agoPretty crazy that Mongolian armies sustained themselves off of horse milk to remove the need for sustenance supply chains during invasions.
- chrisco255 5y agoYou sure they didn't sacrifice a few horses for the meat as well? Seems difficult to keep enough horses pregnant to feed an army off of milk alone.
- glitchc 5y agoThey used yak and oxen too, in fact those were the primary beasts of burden, with horses largely relegated to riding.
- smcnally 5y agoAfter giving birth, lactation continues for ~as long the mother is healthy and being milked.
- nanomonkey 5y agoThe article mentions that they brought along a couple of sheep and a number of mares per soldier. "...five horses and one sheep per soldier would produce approximately 120 days of meat (at a half pound per day—obviously sharing the sheep among a group of men and then killing another messmate’s sheep and so on) and 280 days of airag." Airaq being fermented horse milk, which could be accumulated when the mare was overproducing.
- DSingularity 5y agoDid they carry the sheep or did they just lay behind?
- 0des 5y agoIf you've ever shorn sheep they have this weird quasi tonic immobility, I guess its just them giving up or something, but I could absolutely imagine one tied to a pack or the side of a horse as like a bedroll would be tied on, no different than a sack of wool or other material
- reillyse 5y agoThe sheep walked and ate grass.
- ls15 5y agoCut in thin slices and dehydrated is the most efficient way.
- 0des 5y agoFermented horse milk, fuck I'd go on a rampage too.
- Mikeb85 5y agoKefir, ie. fermented milk (usually from a cow) is something you can buy at the grocery store and is pretty damn tasty. And milk from different animals isn't all that different.
- 0des 5y agoThis is exactly something I'd expect a mongol to say. Nice try.
- lostcolony 5y agoWe're in your steppe, marauding your horde.
- dopidopHN 5y agoTurkish kefir is delicious ( that the only one I know, readily available in Doner Kebab places )
- code_duck 5y agoyeah... it's basically yogurt.
- dopidopHN 5y agoThey did had a technic where they draw blood from their horse in small quantity in order to add more protein. ( I remember that from the Dan Carlin series … he’s usually decent with sources )
- ls15 5y agoI doubt that horse milk was the major source of calories, since horses only produce small amounts of milk and the foals need to be around too. Fermented horse milk (Airag) is a (mildly alcoholic and relatively expensive) specialty beverage in Mongolia today, but certainly not a staple food. I think it is more likely that they brought dehydrated meat and dairy with them, which are common in Mongolia to this day. Probably they also added to their diet what they found along their way, at least meat. Maybe they even tried some grain.
- lordnacho 5y agoThe acoup guy mentions the milk thing as well, surprisingly it seems legit.
- ls15 5y agoMilk would include other dairy than Airag, such as camel, sheep, yak and processed durable dairy, such as butter fat, dried curdles and cheeses. These store for long periods of time. Dairy in many forms indeed is a major source of calories in the traditional Mongolian diet that some rural people eat still today. As far as I can remember, Airag is only produced during July and August. That would be pretty limiting. It also spoils pretty quickly. After a while in warm weather the smell is unbearable. People save the microbes for the the next run in the following year.
- baybal2 5y ago
- azth 5y agoThe Muslims greatly suffered under the Mongol Empire's trail of destruction, and the atrocities the latter committed have been well documented. Yet, it is a great page in our history to have dealt the first major blow to them in the Battle of Ain Jalut[1], saving the world from God knows what horrid things they would have continued had they been left unchallenged. > The battle marked the height of the extent of Mongol conquests, and was the first time a Mongol advance was permanently beaten back in direct combat on the battlefield > The Muslim Mamluks defeated the Mongols in all battles except one. Beside a victory to the Mamluks in Ain Jalut, the Mongols were defeated in the second Battle of Homs, Elbistan and Marj al-Saffar. After five battles with the Mamluks, the Mongols only won at the Battle of Wadi al-Khaznadar. They never returned to Syria again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- robinsoh 5y ago> The Muslims greatly suffered under the Mongol Empire's trail of destruction, and the atrocities the latter committed have been well documented. Hmmm.... I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here or achieve with your comment. You're trying to say that the Mongol Empire's trail of destruction is "worse" than the Islamic Empire's trail of destruction? > it is a great page in our history to have dealt the first major blow to them in the Battle of Ain Jalut[1], saving the world from God knows what horrid things they would have continued had they been left unchallenged. "our" history? "saving the world from them"? Forgive me, but do you feel entirely comfortable saying such things? Since you've made the statement "God knows what horrid things they would have continued had they been left unchallenged.", I wonder what's your take on the historian Niall Ferguson's remark that the Islamic Conquest of South Asia was the largest genocide in human history. I wouldn't be surprised if others had the opposite opinion to you and would have wished the Mongols had done more to protect the world. Are you able to see both sides of these equations?
- xeromal 5y ago
- ardit33 5y agoThe Mongolians did great on fields and plains until they reached mountains and tougher terrain. Their tactics were great for open terrain where you could maneuver with horses. Not so great when you have to deal with mountains. They did great up until they hit Poland and the Balkans, where they faced harsher terrain. They had to abandon their Central European campaign for political reasons, but even If they kept going, I don’t think they would have been that successful in Europe. It took the Ottomans one century to conquer the Balkans and they were still stopped in Poland.
- CyanBird 5y ago> They did great up until they hit Poland and the Balkans, where they faced harsher terrain I keep seeing these historic revisionist takes and it just leaves me... Empty inside, do these people believe that modern Tajikistan is flat? That China is an endless grassland? That Afghanistan, Georgia, the Koreas and East Manchuria, or heck even northern India and Pakistan, are all these places just empty plains? The entirety of you know.... Iran??? Hungary is no more mountainous than the places I mentioned above, I suppose arguing makes no sense here as I feel that these supposed lines or argument are somehow inherently related to a broader sense of "Western excepcionalism"
- dopidopHN 5y agoThanks. And it’s not like western Europe was the prize. More an easy target. China was the real deal.
- ardit33 5y agoNo, he is wrong. Europe was a much harder target. They did well on cities on the Paeonian plains, where it was their natural terrain, but did not do well on European mountainous terrain. They couldn't even take Dubrovnik, let alone Constantinople. (it took the Ottomans half a century, and the advent of the cannons to finally conquer it).
- dopidopHN 5y ago
- jmyeet 5y agoThe role that technology plays in warfare and thus in history fascinates me. The longbow ended knights. Gunpowder ended archery. WWI was really defined (technologically) by the machine gun and, more importantly, artillery. WWII of course featured the tank but the most important (other than the atomic bomb) is air power. The Mongols too had a technology that completely altered warfare and gave them a huge advantage: the humble stirrup [1]. The other side of the technology coin is organization. The Romans improved on the Greek phalanx (eg maniples, cohorts). In more modern times we have combined arms operation. Monogol military organization is really interesting. Most were horse archers. The important thing here is that each Mongol horse soldier typically had 2-10 horses. Why so many? Horses would tire and get injured. Troops could switch to a fresh horse several times a day and greatly extend their range and speed. The speed was really devastating. Of course littered in here was a fairly standard military tactic of the false rout. Units would appear to run away and overeager opponents would give chase, overextend and then be drawn into a trap and attacked from all sides. But the subject of grass is an interesting one. In addition to having fresh horses to ride, those horses also provided milk to the riders. This meant that a Mongol army could extend far without having long supply lines, which are the bane of any military operation (just ask the Russians). Beyond the grassy steppes I imagine the Mongols were forced to do what other militaries had to do: forage. "Forage" is a really interesting word and a horrible euphemism. It really means to take by force if necessary whatever you needed from wherever you happened to be. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/05/the-mongols-built-an-empire-with-one-technological-breakthrough/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/05/the-mongols-built-an...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ggm 5y agoThe Stirrup would be an unknown inexplicable advantage for about one dead mongol horseman's time above ground, followed by the delay to ask a smithy: "make me 20,000 of these" More realistically, however long it took to make something in the field from the leather/rope/cloth to hand, and a willingness to understand it's implications.
- 5y ago
- s5300 5y agoIm consistently surprised Mongolia still actually exists. Surrounding countries in that area have to have generations of festering hate for that country. Im not saying that to be rude - if you’ve never brushed up on the history of Mongolian conquest… it’s just insane. Highly recommend going down the rabbit hole, interesting on another level the span & techniques of that empire. I’m not much of a fan of continuing to hold grudges against people who weren’t alive when even the oldest of your living ancestors were born, but I’ll never be surprised if China decides they want to wipe them off the map some day. It’s a shame their culture wasn’t privy to much technological advancement regarding long term settlement. Modern borders would likely be much different if they had been.
- antisthenes 5y agoIt helps that Mongolia is a complete geopolitical non-factor, pretty much at the same level of economic power as North Korea, except without nuclear weapons. Their territory is also fairly infertile, cold and of little strategic importance, being landlocked and all. I mean, most of the country is Gobi Desert, so yeah.
- jaza 5y agoMongolia still exists because both of its neighbours, Russia and China, accept that it's a useful buffer between them. In particular, the Soviet Union supported Mongolia staying independent, to prevent PR China from cutting off its access to Eastern Siberia. That's the short story, at least.
- qiskit 5y ago> Surrounding countries in that area have to have generations of festering hate for that country. Most surrounding countries don't have festering hate for mongolia. It's only in the west we do. The mongol empire is actually admired in much of asia. > if you’ve never brushed up on the history of Mongolian conquest… it’s just insane. I have and almost all of it is exaggerated nonsense. > but I’ll never be surprised if China decides they want to wipe them off the map some day. China is more likely to wipe out Britain or Germany or France or anyone else than the mongols. Why would china wipe out the mongols when much of modern china is a mongol creation starting with the yuan dynasty. > It’s a shame their culture wasn’t privy to much technological advancement regarding long term settlement. It's not a matter of technological advancement. It's a matter of the nature of empire. The mongol empire, despite the stereotype, was not a genocidal colonizing empire. Most empires throughout history weren't genocidal colonizing empires. > Modern borders would likely be much different if they had been. Modern borders are different due to them - from vietnam to hungary, from russia to india and everywhere in between.
- alexnewman 5y agoThat's funny, I thought the reason why the mongols didn't expand more was the the big K died of alcholism early and they all had to go back to have the big council.
- biztos 5y agoWhere do you get the alcohol angle from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Death_and_succession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Death_and_success...
- rramadass 5y agoOne unique first-hand source on the Mongols can be seen in The Story of the Mongols: Whom We Call the Tartars by Friar Giovanni Carpini. (translated by Erik Hildinger) The cover with a picture of a Mongol soldier is itself worth the price of the book ! - https://www.amazon.com/Story-Mongols-Whom-Call-Tartars/dp/0828320179 https://www.amazon.com/Story-Mongols-Whom-Call-Tartars/dp/08... Overview of the work on wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ystoria_Mongalorum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ystoria_Mongalorum
- pdoub 5y agoAlso highly recommended is https://acoup.blog/2020/12/11/collections-that-dothraki-horde-part-ii-subsistence-on-the-hoof/ https://acoup.blog/2020/12/11/collections-that-dothraki-hord..., a blog by a military historian
- pmarreck 5y agoOne of the most fascinating Mongol-related historical footnotes I'm aware of is what happened to the Khwarazmian Empire. What's that, you say? You never heard of them? Well that's because Genghis Khan literally wiped them off the map after their paranoid leader sent at least 2 of his trade envoys back with everyone but 1 decapitated (and the survivor carrying the heads). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarazmian_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarazmian_Empire
- Bilal_io 5y agoThat's interesting. This made me look up the empire's relation to Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī[1], the mathematician whose work influenced the name Algorithm. He is named Al-Khawarzmi after the city he originated from. The same was for the Khawarazmian Empire which started from the same city. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwariz...
- pmarreck 5y agoFascinating!