5 ms·

this reminded me of the "This is Water" commencement speech given by David Foster Wallace to the 2005 graduating class at Kenyon College. Key graf: "In the day

this reminded me of the "This is Water" commencement speech given by David Foster Wallace to the 2005 graduating class at Kenyon College. Key graf: "In the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And an outstanding reason for choosing some sort of God or spiritual-type thing to worship — be it J.C. or Allah, be it Yahweh or the Wiccan mother-goddess or the Four Noble Truths or some infrangible set of ethical principles — is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive." Full talk available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178211966454607.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178211966454607.html https://fs.blog/david-foster-wallace-this-is-water/ https://fs.blog/david-foster-wallace-this-is-water/

neilv 5y ago
Yeah, this part of TFA sounded like it might almost be a reference to the DFW speech: > This is why you have to choose your status game wisely. Because whatever status game you choose in life ultimately determines what you optimize for. Choose money and you’ll end up working all the time. Choose beauty and you’ll always want to look better. Choose fame and you’ll constantly be seeking attention.
- allenu 5y ago
  The inverse to this is the old quote attributed to Joe Biden: “Don’t tell me what you value, show me your budget, and I’ll tell you what you value.” If you want to see what someone values, look at where they spend their time, money, resources, etc.
  - edmundsauto 5y ago
    Don’t tell me what your system diagram says, show me your data models.
- skmurphy 5y ago
  Nick Maggiulli vectors people to https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata to comment on his posts. Alex Hardy commented two days ago https://twitter.com/CantHardyWait/status/1508789463664709646 https://twitter.com/CantHardyWait/status/1508789463664709646 “There is no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship.” I did not see this when I left my comment here. But Maggiulli responded https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/1508815480466849794 https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/150881548046684979... DFW is a major influence [I am inferring DFW = David Foster Wallace]. Bryce Thornton https://twitter.com/brycethornton/status/1508788922624716802 https://twitter.com/brycethornton/status/1508788922624716802 pointed to the YouTube video and Maggiulli replied https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/1508815519532699667 https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/150881551953269966... "It's so good" I would have thought he would have done more to credit Wallace as an influence. I had blogged about the Foster commencement speech at https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2012/05/27/david-foster-wallace-the-only-choice-we-get-is-what-to-worship/ https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2012/05/27/david-foster-wallac... which is why I saw the resonance. Wallace offered an appropriate antidote to a model for entrepreneurial motivation that aspires to make enough money to do whatever you want. He outlines some of the risks in failing to align your life with a higher spiritual purpose.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > It's funny, Nick Maggiulli doesn't allow comments but vectors people to https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata Why is that "funny"? Running a decent commenting system on the modern Internet is not easy, especially if you're not a coder/techie. The dude already has full time job.
XorNot 5y ago
Ah yes, the long history of religious worship definitely having no negative consequences whatsoever to individuals, their communities and wider geopolitics. No one ever has been sacrificed or convinced they just sacrifice in the name of their god. Never.
- skmurphy 5y ago
  Wallace also offers "an infrangible set of ethical principles" as an option. His point is to avoid feeding your ego. Which is the same point that Maggiulli is making.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  Those aren’t true believers. Either the executioners or the victims, take your pick.
  - thomastjeffery 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
throw0101a 5y ago
(Saint) Thomas Aquinas several hundred years considered the main Earthly goods that many people hold up as the Highest Good as: wealth, honour, glory/fame, power, pleasure. * https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2002.htm https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2002.htm See also Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.
- bobthechef 5y ago
thomastjeffery 5y ago
That's making the broad assumption that religion won't "eat you alive". My personal experience deeply contradicts that. My perspective is that atheism is not a lack of worship, but a lack of faith. Faith requires you suspend critical thinking on a predetermined set of claims. Atheism, to me, is the rejection of faith; to direct critical thought to all claims. Taking that to its conclusion, I worship critical thinking. I can't think of a better way to avoid being eaten.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > My perspective is that atheism is not a lack of worship, but a lack of faith. Can you define what you mean by "faith"? * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z4wKCsD59Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z4wKCsD59Q * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4PSgFjtvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4PSgFjtvI > Faith requires you suspend critical thinking on a predetermined set of claims. People like Thomas Aquinas would disagree. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-the-existence-of-god https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-... * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6963088-aquinas https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6963088-aquinas * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-some-background.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-some-backgrou...
  - thomastjeffery 5y ago
    Faith was always described to me as a belief in something that cannot be proven. In my experience, however, especially in terms of Christianity, faith is a belief in something that cannot be proven, and - crucially - can be disproven. To put it more clearly, faith detaches a claim from reality, and puts it into a realm above criticism. As a small example, the idea that the first human male was created directly by a deity contradicts the existence of early hominids, cannot account for retroviral DNA sequences present in both humans and apes, etc. St. Thomas Aquinas was an excellent philosopher, whose contributions to human thought will likely continue to be studied for generations to come; whether or not they are based in reality or abstraction. My disagreement with Aquinas is that the ideas of Christianity that are based in the abstract are expressed as literal fact, even though such "facts" and their origins are deeply contradicted by evidence. There is a name for the inability to criticize Christianity for contradicting with evidence: "faith". My experience with faith is a little closer to this century: Mormonism. A flavor of Christianity invented by Joseph Smith, who founded his church in upstate New York in 1830. As a decedent of several Mormon "Pioneers", I was raised in that church. I had deeply held faith in its claims, and even "served" a mission; going door-to-door sharing my beliefs with anyone willing to listen. Later on, I learned a more complete history of the Mormon (LDS) Church, and for the first time applied critical thinking to what I had until then held out of reach with "faith". If you want a picture of what this experience is like, I would recommend this heartfelt letter[1] to a stubbornly faithful spouse. It both expresses the emotional journey of leaving the Mormon faith, and provides detailed information and context on the subject. I haven't spent as much effort deconstructing Christianity on the whole, but there are no doubt similar resources available to the subject. Suffice it to say, after becoming familiar with faith, I see the same pattern applied with all religion. [1] https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter
driverdan 5y ago
I seriously hope there's more context in the full talk because that quote alone is absolute nonsense.

neilv 5y ago

Yeah, this part of TFA sounded like it might almost be a reference to the DFW speech: > This is why you have to choose your status game wisely. Because whatever status game you choose in life ultimately determines what you optimize for. Choose money and you’ll end up working all the time. Choose beauty and you’ll always want to look better. Choose fame and you’ll constantly be seeking attention.

allenu 5y ago
The inverse to this is the old quote attributed to Joe Biden: “Don’t tell me what you value, show me your budget, and I’ll tell you what you value.” If you want to see what someone values, look at where they spend their time, money, resources, etc.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  Don’t tell me what your system diagram says, show me your data models.
skmurphy 5y ago
Nick Maggiulli vectors people to https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata to comment on his posts. Alex Hardy commented two days ago https://twitter.com/CantHardyWait/status/1508789463664709646 https://twitter.com/CantHardyWait/status/1508789463664709646 “There is no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship.” I did not see this when I left my comment here. But Maggiulli responded https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/1508815480466849794 https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/150881548046684979... DFW is a major influence [I am inferring DFW = David Foster Wallace]. Bryce Thornton https://twitter.com/brycethornton/status/1508788922624716802 https://twitter.com/brycethornton/status/1508788922624716802 pointed to the YouTube video and Maggiulli replied https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/1508815519532699667 https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata/status/150881551953269966... "It's so good" I would have thought he would have done more to credit Wallace as an influence. I had blogged about the Foster commencement speech at https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2012/05/27/david-foster-wallace-the-only-choice-we-get-is-what-to-worship/ https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2012/05/27/david-foster-wallac... which is why I saw the resonance. Wallace offered an appropriate antidote to a model for entrepreneurial motivation that aspires to make enough money to do whatever you want. He outlines some of the risks in failing to align your life with a higher spiritual purpose.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > It's funny, Nick Maggiulli doesn't allow comments but vectors people to https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata https://twitter.com/dollarsanddata Why is that "funny"? Running a decent commenting system on the modern Internet is not easy, especially if you're not a coder/techie. The dude already has full time job.

XorNot 5y ago

Ah yes, the long history of religious worship definitely having no negative consequences whatsoever to individuals, their communities and wider geopolitics. No one ever has been sacrificed or convinced they just sacrifice in the name of their god. Never.

skmurphy 5y ago
Wallace also offers "an infrangible set of ethical principles" as an option. His point is to avoid feeding your ego. Which is the same point that Maggiulli is making.
edmundsauto 5y ago
Those aren’t true believers. Either the executioners or the victims, take your pick.
- thomastjeffery 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

throw0101a 5y ago

(Saint) Thomas Aquinas several hundred years considered the main Earthly goods that many people hold up as the Highest Good as: wealth, honour, glory/fame, power, pleasure. * https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2002.htm https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2002.htm See also Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.

bobthechef 5y ago

thomastjeffery 5y ago

That's making the broad assumption that religion won't "eat you alive". My personal experience deeply contradicts that. My perspective is that atheism is not a lack of worship, but a lack of faith. Faith requires you suspend critical thinking on a predetermined set of claims. Atheism, to me, is the rejection of faith; to direct critical thought to all claims. Taking that to its conclusion, I worship critical thinking. I can't think of a better way to avoid being eaten.

throw0101a 5y ago
> My perspective is that atheism is not a lack of worship, but a lack of faith. Can you define what you mean by "faith"? * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z4wKCsD59Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z4wKCsD59Q * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4PSgFjtvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4PSgFjtvI > Faith requires you suspend critical thinking on a predetermined set of claims. People like Thomas Aquinas would disagree. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-the-existence-of-god https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-... * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6963088-aquinas https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6963088-aquinas * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-some-background.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-some-backgrou...
- thomastjeffery 5y ago
  Faith was always described to me as a belief in something that cannot be proven. In my experience, however, especially in terms of Christianity, faith is a belief in something that cannot be proven, and - crucially - can be disproven. To put it more clearly, faith detaches a claim from reality, and puts it into a realm above criticism. As a small example, the idea that the first human male was created directly by a deity contradicts the existence of early hominids, cannot account for retroviral DNA sequences present in both humans and apes, etc. St. Thomas Aquinas was an excellent philosopher, whose contributions to human thought will likely continue to be studied for generations to come; whether or not they are based in reality or abstraction. My disagreement with Aquinas is that the ideas of Christianity that are based in the abstract are expressed as literal fact, even though such "facts" and their origins are deeply contradicted by evidence. There is a name for the inability to criticize Christianity for contradicting with evidence: "faith". My experience with faith is a little closer to this century: Mormonism. A flavor of Christianity invented by Joseph Smith, who founded his church in upstate New York in 1830. As a decedent of several Mormon "Pioneers", I was raised in that church. I had deeply held faith in its claims, and even "served" a mission; going door-to-door sharing my beliefs with anyone willing to listen. Later on, I learned a more complete history of the Mormon (LDS) Church, and for the first time applied critical thinking to what I had until then held out of reach with "faith". If you want a picture of what this experience is like, I would recommend this heartfelt letter[1] to a stubbornly faithful spouse. It both expresses the emotional journey of leaving the Mormon faith, and provides detailed information and context on the subject. I haven't spent as much effort deconstructing Christianity on the whole, but there are no doubt similar resources available to the subject. Suffice it to say, after becoming familiar with faith, I see the same pattern applied with all religion. [1] https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter

driverdan 5y ago

I seriously hope there's more context in the full talk because that quote alone is absolute nonsense.