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Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Besides, if I do something

Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Besides, if I do something so bad my boss wants to fire me, fine then I'll go work somewhere where people want me. I don't want to have to bring in my union rep to argue about it since going somewhere else means losing my tenure and taking a 30% pay cut. The only time unions make sense is when you're doing labor that could be done by anyone and your bus factor is basically infinite. It doesn't make sense for skilled labor

Spivak 5y ago
Unionizing makes sense for people who… * don’t want to have to switch jobs to address grievances * can’t switch jobs because everywhere is shitty (eg actors guild). * an industry has a monopoly on some local resource like forest for lumber or coal mines and so you can’t just start or join a competitor. It’s not really about skilled labor, it’s about mobility and the market forces that prevent it.
oblio 5y ago
You shouldn't be forced to join a union but joining a union should not be an issue for any company. In practice, creating unions is heavily frowned upon and discouraged through various underhanded means. That should tell you that companies view unions as enemies, and collective bargaining in general. And companies for sure don't have your interests in mind. Also for sure you don't have the negotiating power they have.
- tuckerman 5y ago
  Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product managers at places like Alphabet and Meta are treated extremely well, make great salaries in the bay area, and (at least pre pandemic) were catered to with many great benefits (including catering). There are some jobs/places where this isn't the case, but many silicon valley developers have a fairly symbiotic relationship with their employers.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    As incredibly inflated as developer salaries might seem - these companies make insane profits because developers create a lot more value than they cost. Companies never have your best interests in mind, small companies can act altruistically on small scales, but altruism is one of the first things that companies optimize away (beyond the level that earns them good PR). All those nice "free" benefits exist to make the employer more attractive to new employees, if you are a loyal employee no longer able to work productively due to an accident or other life changes you'll be exposed to just how much companies care about you. Silicon Valley has so much money that they can go pretty extravagant with benefits and perks, but (excepting again small/new companies that are living on VC funding) companies do care first about their bottom line. And, to be clear, I'm not actually saying this is necessarily a bad thing. I personally believe that social services should be at the grace of the government and not your employer - but this system relies on people on both sides of the fence (employee and employer) realizing that their employment is a contract that is to the benefit of the company and if their contract ceases to be beneficial it will be terminated. Being unaware of this fact will lead you to grief - it's on you to make sure you're getting a fair share for your value (which might, just FYI, include diverting a lot of your value creation to warehouse workers and the like who you think deserve a higher standard of living)
  - oblio 5y ago
    > Alphabet The Company Formerly Known As Google, that literally had to settle (i.e. paid money to not lose the trial) for collusion to depress employee wages? That company? Yeah, employee interests at heart <3 > Meta For employees I hear The Company Formerly Knows as Facebook is actually quite good. But they're not a charity. > were catered to with many great benefits (including catering) Those benefits are cheap when bought in bulk, like corporations do. They also encouraged employees to stay more at work. Yes, they're nice, but let's not pretend that those benefits were not chosen very strategically. Both Google and Facebook are making a ton of money and still growing like gangbusters (Facebook somewhat less so). Once their growth plateaus, if they need to fire 10k employees each to increase profits and share values, they will do so without remorse. Probably on a Zoom call with all 10k employees at once.
    - 5y ago
beardedetim 5y ago
> Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Why does the former preclude the latter? > Besides, if I do something so bad my boss wants to fire me, fine then I'll go work somewhere where people want me. What if you didn't do _anything_ and your boss wants to fire you so badly? What if your boss fired you over Zoom randomly without any recourse? > The only time unions make sense is when you're doing labor that could be done by anyone and your bus factor is basically infinite. I disagree with this point. A union makes sense for anyone that is working for a wage. It makes sense to me to work together for all of our benefit rather than me to try to go up against those that pay my wage alone. Put it another way, I do not think that I can argue well enough to get the actual value that I produce back in my pocket and would love if we all banded together and said "We deserve this much of the value we produce" instead.
- judge2020 5y ago
  > What if your boss fired you over Zoom randomly without any recourse? They can do that even with a union. The difference with a union is that they can collectively stop working if the employer violated a clause like "union members must be fired with reasoning pre-approved by the union", and then the employer either needs to find new employees for every person that was in the union or needs to re-negotiate terms with the union, likely including reparations ie. re-hiring the coworker. A union makes sense for anyone that is working for a wage but that doesn't mean people have to want to be in one. Adding a union adds a bunch of extra politics and brainpower to the advent of getting your job done, and that's not for everyone.
  - M2Ys4U 5y ago
    >They can do that even with a union. The difference with a union is that they can collectively stop working if the employer violated a clause like "union members must be fired with reasoning pre-approved by the union", and then the employer either needs to find new employees for every person that was in the union or needs to re-negotiate terms with the union, likely including reparations ie. re-hiring the coworker. But that potential response by the union should be enough of an incentive that casually firing somebody over Zoom for no reason is removed from the employer's SOP.
zjaffee 5y ago
That's just blatantly false, unions absolutely make sense for skilled labor. This isn't to say tech workers should unionize, but teachers, public defenders, subway engineers, high skill building trades, skilled workers in film are all unionized. Unions provide a ton of value if you're a skilled worker who does something comparable to gig work, jumping from jobsite to jobsite where the Union helps them keep their health insurance. It also helps when your job also has other political implications. The context tech workers should unionize would be in an instance where they job hopped even more often than is currently the case, and also potentially on teams where you become just so specialized that switching companies becomes difficult.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beambot 5y ago
  Guild versus Union?
  - zjaffee 5y ago
    In the US, federated labor which used to sometimes be organized under the name guild were merged with industrial unions under the umbrella of the AFL-CIO in the US.
- cycomanic 5y ago
  The irony is that the highest paid jobs in the US (apart from c-level management, but you could argue they are a union themselves, because they all know each other) are highly unionized, sports and acting.
memish 5y ago
That so many tech workers don't understand that is legit scary. It's illogical and counterproductive, so it strongly suggests a parasitic mind virus has taken root.
tifik 5y ago
> If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. I agree with this sentence - because of the current state of the job market, and the level of seniority I have attained. However, if you are entry or junior, or if the market changes (good times don't last forever), just working a 'skilled labor' job won't give you the job security we enjoy atm. In that case, looking for a new job would be much more daunting, and working on improving your current work conditions might be a much better option. (edit - improve accuracy of which part of the statement I agree with)
xibo9 5y ago
Not only is your last paragraph incredibly elitist, but any labor is skilled labor. The difference is degree of skill. A union does not prevent you from leaving your job for another employer. Why would you think that?
criddell 5y ago
> It doesn’t make sense for skilled labor. I would consider professional athletes skilled and they have powerful unions. Hollywood writers, actors, and directors are skilled an they all have unions/guilds.
booleandilemma 5y ago
As a developer myself, I'd rather be in a union before companies start collectively fucking developers over. And I think it makes more sense to join a union preemptively, while things are in our favor, than to join a union in the future, possibly from a position of weakness. The problem is, of course, every developer thinks they're a 10x rockstar who doesn't need a union.
- amelius 5y ago
  > The problem is, of course, every developer thinks they're a 10x rockstar who doesn't need a union. Apple is a 10x rockstar company ... Maybe 100x. The days of the lone 10x programmer with a strategy that leads to guaranteed success are over.

Spivak 5y ago

Unionizing makes sense for people who… * don’t want to have to switch jobs to address grievances * can’t switch jobs because everywhere is shitty (eg actors guild). * an industry has a monopoly on some local resource like forest for lumber or coal mines and so you can’t just start or join a competitor. It’s not really about skilled labor, it’s about mobility and the market forces that prevent it.

oblio 5y ago

You shouldn't be forced to join a union but joining a union should not be an issue for any company. In practice, creating unions is heavily frowned upon and discouraged through various underhanded means. That should tell you that companies view unions as enemies, and collective bargaining in general. And companies for sure don't have your interests in mind. Also for sure you don't have the negotiating power they have.

tuckerman 5y ago
Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product managers at places like Alphabet and Meta are treated extremely well, make great salaries in the bay area, and (at least pre pandemic) were catered to with many great benefits (including catering). There are some jobs/places where this isn't the case, but many silicon valley developers have a fairly symbiotic relationship with their employers.
- munk-a 5y ago
  As incredibly inflated as developer salaries might seem - these companies make insane profits because developers create a lot more value than they cost. Companies never have your best interests in mind, small companies can act altruistically on small scales, but altruism is one of the first things that companies optimize away (beyond the level that earns them good PR). All those nice "free" benefits exist to make the employer more attractive to new employees, if you are a loyal employee no longer able to work productively due to an accident or other life changes you'll be exposed to just how much companies care about you. Silicon Valley has so much money that they can go pretty extravagant with benefits and perks, but (excepting again small/new companies that are living on VC funding) companies do care first about their bottom line. And, to be clear, I'm not actually saying this is necessarily a bad thing. I personally believe that social services should be at the grace of the government and not your employer - but this system relies on people on both sides of the fence (employee and employer) realizing that their employment is a contract that is to the benefit of the company and if their contract ceases to be beneficial it will be terminated. Being unaware of this fact will lead you to grief - it's on you to make sure you're getting a fair share for your value (which might, just FYI, include diverting a lot of your value creation to warehouse workers and the like who you think deserve a higher standard of living)
- oblio 5y ago
  > Alphabet The Company Formerly Known As Google, that literally had to settle (i.e. paid money to not lose the trial) for collusion to depress employee wages? That company? Yeah, employee interests at heart <3 > Meta For employees I hear The Company Formerly Knows as Facebook is actually quite good. But they're not a charity. > were catered to with many great benefits (including catering) Those benefits are cheap when bought in bulk, like corporations do. They also encouraged employees to stay more at work. Yes, they're nice, but let's not pretend that those benefits were not chosen very strategically. Both Google and Facebook are making a ton of money and still growing like gangbusters (Facebook somewhat less so). Once their growth plateaus, if they need to fire 10k employees each to increase profits and share values, they will do so without remorse. Probably on a Zoom call with all 10k employees at once.
  - 5y ago

beardedetim 5y ago

> Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Why does the former preclude the latter? > Besides, if I do something so bad my boss wants to fire me, fine then I'll go work somewhere where people want me. What if you didn't do _anything_ and your boss wants to fire you so badly? What if your boss fired you over Zoom randomly without any recourse? > The only time unions make sense is when you're doing labor that could be done by anyone and your bus factor is basically infinite. I disagree with this point. A union makes sense for anyone that is working for a wage. It makes sense to me to work together for all of our benefit rather than me to try to go up against those that pay my wage alone. Put it another way, I do not think that I can argue well enough to get the actual value that I produce back in my pocket and would love if we all banded together and said "We deserve this much of the value we produce" instead.

judge2020 5y ago
> What if your boss fired you over Zoom randomly without any recourse? They can do that even with a union. The difference with a union is that they can collectively stop working if the employer violated a clause like "union members must be fired with reasoning pre-approved by the union", and then the employer either needs to find new employees for every person that was in the union or needs to re-negotiate terms with the union, likely including reparations ie. re-hiring the coworker. A union makes sense for anyone that is working for a wage but that doesn't mean people have to want to be in one. Adding a union adds a bunch of extra politics and brainpower to the advent of getting your job done, and that's not for everyone.
- M2Ys4U 5y ago
  >They can do that even with a union. The difference with a union is that they can collectively stop working if the employer violated a clause like "union members must be fired with reasoning pre-approved by the union", and then the employer either needs to find new employees for every person that was in the union or needs to re-negotiate terms with the union, likely including reparations ie. re-hiring the coworker. But that potential response by the union should be enough of an incentive that casually firing somebody over Zoom for no reason is removed from the employer's SOP.

zjaffee 5y ago

That's just blatantly false, unions absolutely make sense for skilled labor. This isn't to say tech workers should unionize, but teachers, public defenders, subway engineers, high skill building trades, skilled workers in film are all unionized. Unions provide a ton of value if you're a skilled worker who does something comparable to gig work, jumping from jobsite to jobsite where the Union helps them keep their health insurance. It also helps when your job also has other political implications. The context tech workers should unionize would be in an instance where they job hopped even more often than is currently the case, and also potentially on teams where you become just so specialized that switching companies becomes difficult.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
beambot 5y ago
Guild versus Union?
- zjaffee 5y ago
  In the US, federated labor which used to sometimes be organized under the name guild were merged with industrial unions under the umbrella of the AFL-CIO in the US.
cycomanic 5y ago
The irony is that the highest paid jobs in the US (apart from c-level management, but you could argue they are a union themselves, because they all know each other) are highly unionized, sports and acting.

memish 5y ago

That so many tech workers don't understand that is legit scary. It's illogical and counterproductive, so it strongly suggests a parasitic mind virus has taken root.

tifik 5y ago

> If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. I agree with this sentence - because of the current state of the job market, and the level of seniority I have attained. However, if you are entry or junior, or if the market changes (good times don't last forever), just working a 'skilled labor' job won't give you the job security we enjoy atm. In that case, looking for a new job would be much more daunting, and working on improving your current work conditions might be a much better option. (edit - improve accuracy of which part of the statement I agree with)

xibo9 5y ago

Not only is your last paragraph incredibly elitist, but any labor is skilled labor. The difference is degree of skill. A union does not prevent you from leaving your job for another employer. Why would you think that?

criddell 5y ago

> It doesn’t make sense for skilled labor. I would consider professional athletes skilled and they have powerful unions. Hollywood writers, actors, and directors are skilled an they all have unions/guilds.

booleandilemma 5y ago

As a developer myself, I'd rather be in a union before companies start collectively fucking developers over. And I think it makes more sense to join a union preemptively, while things are in our favor, than to join a union in the future, possibly from a position of weakness. The problem is, of course, every developer thinks they're a 10x rockstar who doesn't need a union.

amelius 5y ago
> The problem is, of course, every developer thinks they're a 10x rockstar who doesn't need a union. Apple is a 10x rockstar company ... Maybe 100x. The days of the lone 10x programmer with a strategy that leads to guaranteed success are over.