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Is switching to gender neutral pronouns bad? That being said the bot is pretty poorly coded. Think you’d need something more sophisticated to do it properly. I

Is switching to gender neutral pronouns bad? That being said the bot is pretty poorly coded. Think you’d need something more sophisticated to do it properly. It might actually be intractable to do this (limiting to just man/woman and she/he replacement) in a way they introduces no false positives. On that note these sorts of bots should be opt-in not opt-out.

solids 5y ago
The real question is, "is it good"? I don't like to merge PR's just because.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Well it depends on whether or not subscribe to the belief that gender exclusive language introduces bias.
jhgb 5y ago
It's neutral. As per de Saussure, just like pretty much any feature of the language besides onomatopoeia, they're arbitrary. You could call a computer 'a spedhlurf" and it would be neither better nor worse.
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  This is not quite the right thing to take away from Saussure! In the absence of true signifieds, signifiers are "arbitrary" in the sense of the classical model, but that very thing opens up a huge number of questions about how these relations are formed and enforced, in the absence of substantial nodes. In the absence of signifieds, there can only be, in a broad sense, enforcement, or "rules" to language games that form and disform as society changes, in a more Wittgenstein/Cavell sense. Saussure would absolutely be on the side of questioning our use of language because the effects it has, he is probably the biggest early intellectual source for these discussions. Saussure would laugh quite a bit at everyone's extreme defensiveness in this thread. So many people scared of losing their signifieds that never really existed in the first place. Consider precisely what everyone is so angry about, such that GP is being downvoted so much, it is a faith in a ground that is only a illusion, at the cost of discussions and progress that only aspire to help people. Sad!
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Why isn't it "the right thing to take away"? The fact that a computer is called "Rechner" in German and "ordinateur" in French and "počítač" in Czech shows that it's arbitrary and all three options work equally well -- neither a Frenchman or a German or a Czech will have a misconception of what is being talked about when seeing their respective native words instead of "computer". The fact that "I" in French is "Je" and in German it's "Ich" and in Czech it's "já" shows that that is arbitrary as well and all three options work equally well, too. Or are you saying that one of these language is better or worse than the others? "So many people scared of losing their signifieds" Are you saying that someone is about to steal my computer?
    - beepbooptheory 5y ago
      I mean just think it through though: you are right, but if they are all arbitrary, then it is up to people/us to care about how language is used. If it was otherwise, than all those who resist modifying their language could just appeal to the universal/set-in-stone structures of a language mapping onto a reality. Rather, what we have is language as a kind of spontaneous activity, where we can inquire and question about it, perhaps try to change some things to more closely map onto a better world. Also more historically: structuralism is very much the intellectual tradition from which this kind of discourse ultimately comes from, whether you like it or not. And Saussure is widely considered the "founder" of it. People arent trying to steal your computer, but people on here are very worried about someone stealing their manhood or whatever, and that is silly.
anonymousab 5y ago
The bot just does a naive string replace, which means it's generating a bunch of nonsensical PRs with completely broken code and silly substitutions like "manual" -> "personual". It's also unclear if it's an April Fool's joke, or a glib protest at gender neutral language initiatives, or if it's just a well-intentioned bot with a poor implementation.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  Something similar has already been done a while back with all the predictable whining and bitching from the HN comment section one before. I don’t remember if it was automated PRs lime this though, or if it was copy/paste PR templates with real people submitting them.
bmelton 5y ago
Maybe, maybe not, but replacing "man page" to "person page" to submit a breaking PR probably is? Note that "man page" is an abbreviation of "manual," which etymologically derives from 'manus' (Latin for "hand") and "al" (roughly, "pertaining to"). Arguendo, one could object to 'manual' being the de facto implementation as it is gendered male. Manumal could be a workable neuter representation, but "man page" avoids the Latin gender preference altogether.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I’m not sure what you’re going on about - we’re in agreement that the bot in question doesn’t even do what it purports to do well at all. The question isn’t whether the bot in OP is good, it’s not, it’s whether or not switching to gender neutral language is useful or not.
  - mminer237 5y ago
    In English, "he" is traditionally gender neutral, like in most languages. So the bot's really just changes gender-neutral singular into gender-neutral plural.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      That might be true historically but I would doubt the majority of people today would agree that “he” is a gender neutral pronoun.
      - rascul 5y ago
        "He just cut me off" and similar things are often said while driving, in a gender neutral sense.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        I don’t disagree but advocates of gender neutral language would say that’s more of a symptom of male dominance than gender neutrality. Fascinatingly enough w.r.t driving nearly 80 percent of drivers were men in the 60s (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15389588.2012.755736?scroll=top&needAccess=true https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15389588.2012.7...). You see similar things where she is used as the “gender neutral” pronoun for situations in which a woman was historically over represented
cato_the_elder 5y ago
> Is switching to gender neutral pronouns bad? Yes, it is bad (and of course that's not the only thing the bot is doing). Many of us find this kind of manipulative browbeating distasteful.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  The bot aside why do you believe gender neutral pronouns are bad?
  - the_only_law 5y ago
  - cato_the_elder 5y ago
    Because I (and many others) don't share the moral framework that instructs us to use them, and it kinda seems that they are often used by people who want to impose their values on others. (Although if by gender neutral pronoun you mean "singular they", I'm OK with that.)
    - depaya 5y ago
      - cato_the_elder 5y ago
        > like a petulant child Or alternatively, like a free-spirited and non-conformist person? I bet you too sometimes have felt the urge to "stick it to the man".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

solids 5y ago

The real question is, "is it good"? I don't like to merge PR's just because.

endisneigh 5y ago
Well it depends on whether or not subscribe to the belief that gender exclusive language introduces bias.

jhgb 5y ago

It's neutral. As per de Saussure, just like pretty much any feature of the language besides onomatopoeia, they're arbitrary. You could call a computer 'a spedhlurf" and it would be neither better nor worse.

beepbooptheory 5y ago
This is not quite the right thing to take away from Saussure! In the absence of true signifieds, signifiers are "arbitrary" in the sense of the classical model, but that very thing opens up a huge number of questions about how these relations are formed and enforced, in the absence of substantial nodes. In the absence of signifieds, there can only be, in a broad sense, enforcement, or "rules" to language games that form and disform as society changes, in a more Wittgenstein/Cavell sense. Saussure would absolutely be on the side of questioning our use of language because the effects it has, he is probably the biggest early intellectual source for these discussions. Saussure would laugh quite a bit at everyone's extreme defensiveness in this thread. So many people scared of losing their signifieds that never really existed in the first place. Consider precisely what everyone is so angry about, such that GP is being downvoted so much, it is a faith in a ground that is only a illusion, at the cost of discussions and progress that only aspire to help people. Sad!
- jhgb 5y ago
  Why isn't it "the right thing to take away"? The fact that a computer is called "Rechner" in German and "ordinateur" in French and "počítač" in Czech shows that it's arbitrary and all three options work equally well -- neither a Frenchman or a German or a Czech will have a misconception of what is being talked about when seeing their respective native words instead of "computer". The fact that "I" in French is "Je" and in German it's "Ich" and in Czech it's "já" shows that that is arbitrary as well and all three options work equally well, too. Or are you saying that one of these language is better or worse than the others? "So many people scared of losing their signifieds" Are you saying that someone is about to steal my computer?
  - beepbooptheory 5y ago
    I mean just think it through though: you are right, but if they are all arbitrary, then it is up to people/us to care about how language is used. If it was otherwise, than all those who resist modifying their language could just appeal to the universal/set-in-stone structures of a language mapping onto a reality. Rather, what we have is language as a kind of spontaneous activity, where we can inquire and question about it, perhaps try to change some things to more closely map onto a better world. Also more historically: structuralism is very much the intellectual tradition from which this kind of discourse ultimately comes from, whether you like it or not. And Saussure is widely considered the "founder" of it. People arent trying to steal your computer, but people on here are very worried about someone stealing their manhood or whatever, and that is silly.

anonymousab 5y ago

The bot just does a naive string replace, which means it's generating a bunch of nonsensical PRs with completely broken code and silly substitutions like "manual" -> "personual". It's also unclear if it's an April Fool's joke, or a glib protest at gender neutral language initiatives, or if it's just a well-intentioned bot with a poor implementation.

the_only_law 5y ago
Something similar has already been done a while back with all the predictable whining and bitching from the HN comment section one before. I don’t remember if it was automated PRs lime this though, or if it was copy/paste PR templates with real people submitting them.

bmelton 5y ago

Maybe, maybe not, but replacing "man page" to "person page" to submit a breaking PR probably is? Note that "man page" is an abbreviation of "manual," which etymologically derives from 'manus' (Latin for "hand") and "al" (roughly, "pertaining to"). Arguendo, one could object to 'manual' being the de facto implementation as it is gendered male. Manumal could be a workable neuter representation, but "man page" avoids the Latin gender preference altogether.

endisneigh 5y ago
I’m not sure what you’re going on about - we’re in agreement that the bot in question doesn’t even do what it purports to do well at all. The question isn’t whether the bot in OP is good, it’s not, it’s whether or not switching to gender neutral language is useful or not.
- mminer237 5y ago
  In English, "he" is traditionally gender neutral, like in most languages. So the bot's really just changes gender-neutral singular into gender-neutral plural.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    That might be true historically but I would doubt the majority of people today would agree that “he” is a gender neutral pronoun.
    - rascul 5y ago
      "He just cut me off" and similar things are often said while driving, in a gender neutral sense.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        I don’t disagree but advocates of gender neutral language would say that’s more of a symptom of male dominance than gender neutrality. Fascinatingly enough w.r.t driving nearly 80 percent of drivers were men in the 60s (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15389588.2012.755736?scroll=top&needAccess=true https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15389588.2012.7...). You see similar things where she is used as the “gender neutral” pronoun for situations in which a woman was historically over represented

cato_the_elder 5y ago

> Is switching to gender neutral pronouns bad? Yes, it is bad (and of course that's not the only thing the bot is doing). Many of us find this kind of manipulative browbeating distasteful.

endisneigh 5y ago
The bot aside why do you believe gender neutral pronouns are bad?
- the_only_law 5y ago
- cato_the_elder 5y ago
  Because I (and many others) don't share the moral framework that instructs us to use them, and it kinda seems that they are often used by people who want to impose their values on others. (Although if by gender neutral pronoun you mean "singular they", I'm OK with that.)
  - depaya 5y ago
    - cato_the_elder 5y ago
      > like a petulant child Or alternatively, like a free-spirited and non-conformist person? I bet you too sometimes have felt the urge to "stick it to the man".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]