6 ms·

I think you misread that paragraph. It refers to situations like this: "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual. Do they live in t

by jkrems 5y ago

I think you misread that paragraph. It refers to situations like this: "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual. Do *they* live in the same household as you?" Yes, you could also write out "the other individual" every time. The guideline doesn't prevent that. But it says not to use "he" or "she" (or "he/she") to refer to the other individual.

ibejoeb 5y ago
I didn't misread. I like your example. "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual." The other person is, grammatically, the third person singular. "Do they" does not agree. The correct form with a pronoun is "Does [3sg]." But we can avoid using a pronoun simply by using the noun. "Does the other person" is correct, accurately describes the scenario, and is comprehensible at essential English reading levels, which is incredibly important.
- valenaut 5y ago
  Singular "they" is pretty widely accepted today. Nothing wrong about it. "You" can also be singular or plural. > Is “they” singular or plural? The answer is both. As of 2019, most big style guides—including the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA style manual, and the APA style manual—accept the usage of the singular they. [0] [0] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/
  - ibejoeb 5y ago
    I agree with you for the purposes of colloquial speech. However, this is formal, and the formality serves a specific purpose. Somewhat tangentially, we're talking about UK services, and you're citing American style guides. The major British style guides advise against singular "they." Since we're talking about usability and accessibility, I'm going hammer on the point that this needs to be accessible at baseline reading comprehension levels. Singular "they" is generally not taught either in primary or ESL environments. If it does become part of standard education, we still have generations of people who have not experienced it.
- 123456789012340 5y ago
  'They' is a third person singular pronoun. It has been in use to denote an singular individual of unknown gender for hundreds of years (since ~14th century). "With an antecedent referring to an individual generically or indefinitely (e.g. someone, a person, the student), used esp. so as to make a general reference to such an individual without specifying gender"[0] "Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= ‘he or she’)."[1] [0] - https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 - current OED entry [1] - https://www.oed.com/oed2/00251026 https://www.oed.com/oed2/00251026 - 2nd edition OED entry from 1989
  - sam_bristow 5y ago
    Funny how people who get wound up about singular 'they' don't have the same issues with singular 'you'.
    - ibejoeb 5y ago
      I would have exactly the same problem. When it is ambiguous, it needs to be clarified. It's easy to write it with clarity. What's the argument for not writing for clarity? This is the fourth time I'm asking, and yet none of the dispassionate, logical people here are willing to address it.
- MrJohz 5y ago
  "They" uses the plural verb form in pretty much all situations, even if it only refers to a single person. This should be pretty intuitive to most native English speakers - saying "they is cold" is clearly unnatural, but "they are cold" works. There is an exception for "themselves" - there is some usage of the word "themself" ("they did that themself") but it's fairly uncommon, and most people seem to stick to "themselves" even for a single individual. It's worth noting that grammar isn't always so concerned with the logic of a situation. For example, German has grammatical gender that, for people at least, matches the gender of the person in question - a male nurse uses masculine articles, a female nurse uses feminine ones. However, a girl (Mädchen) is addressed using neutral articles because the linguistic rule ("-chen" is neuter) overrides the logical rule (female people use female articles). Finally, it's worth pointing out that, even from a prescriptive perspective, most bodies encourage (or at least allow) the use of the singular they (with plural verb forms).
  - ibejoeb 5y ago
    > "They" uses the plural verb form in pretty much all situations, even if it only refers to a single person. This is the problem. I'd like to remind everyone that the context is the usability of a government services website. > This should be pretty intuitive to most native English speakers How about non-native speakers? > most bodies encourage (or at least allow) the use of the singular they The British style guides advise against it. I'd ask everyone, rather than repeatedly reminding me that in casual speech we can use different constructions, what is the benefit of using this particular construction in a formal context wherein comprehension is paramount?
    - wiedelphine 5y ago
      Given the amount of user research that is done on the guidance that is added to the design system, I would imagine they've tested it with users and found it works. It also fits in with their style guide, which talks about writing in a conversational style, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-uk#plain-english https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-u...

I think you misread that paragraph. It refers to situations like this: "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual. Do *they* live in t

by jkrems 5y ago

ibejoeb 5y ago

I didn't misread. I like your example. "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual." The other person is, grammatically, the third person singular. "Do they" does not agree. The correct form with a pronoun is "Does [3sg]." But we can avoid using a pronoun simply by using the noun. "Does the other person" is correct, accurately describes the scenario, and is comprehensible at essential English reading levels, which is incredibly important.

valenaut 5y ago
Singular "they" is pretty widely accepted today. Nothing wrong about it. "You" can also be singular or plural. > Is “they” singular or plural? The answer is both. As of 2019, most big style guides—including the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA style manual, and the APA style manual—accept the usage of the singular they. [0] [0] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/
- ibejoeb 5y ago
  I agree with you for the purposes of colloquial speech. However, this is formal, and the formality serves a specific purpose. Somewhat tangentially, we're talking about UK services, and you're citing American style guides. The major British style guides advise against singular "they." Since we're talking about usability and accessibility, I'm going hammer on the point that this needs to be accessible at baseline reading comprehension levels. Singular "they" is generally not taught either in primary or ESL environments. If it does become part of standard education, we still have generations of people who have not experienced it.
123456789012340 5y ago
'They' is a third person singular pronoun. It has been in use to denote an singular individual of unknown gender for hundreds of years (since ~14th century). "With an antecedent referring to an individual generically or indefinitely (e.g. someone, a person, the student), used esp. so as to make a general reference to such an individual without specifying gender"[0] "Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= ‘he or she’)."[1] [0] - https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 - current OED entry [1] - https://www.oed.com/oed2/00251026 https://www.oed.com/oed2/00251026 - 2nd edition OED entry from 1989
- sam_bristow 5y ago
  Funny how people who get wound up about singular 'they' don't have the same issues with singular 'you'.
  - ibejoeb 5y ago
    I would have exactly the same problem. When it is ambiguous, it needs to be clarified. It's easy to write it with clarity. What's the argument for not writing for clarity? This is the fourth time I'm asking, and yet none of the dispassionate, logical people here are willing to address it.
MrJohz 5y ago
"They" uses the plural verb form in pretty much all situations, even if it only refers to a single person. This should be pretty intuitive to most native English speakers - saying "they is cold" is clearly unnatural, but "they are cold" works. There is an exception for "themselves" - there is some usage of the word "themself" ("they did that themself") but it's fairly uncommon, and most people seem to stick to "themselves" even for a single individual. It's worth noting that grammar isn't always so concerned with the logic of a situation. For example, German has grammatical gender that, for people at least, matches the gender of the person in question - a male nurse uses masculine articles, a female nurse uses feminine ones. However, a girl (Mädchen) is addressed using neutral articles because the linguistic rule ("-chen" is neuter) overrides the logical rule (female people use female articles). Finally, it's worth pointing out that, even from a prescriptive perspective, most bodies encourage (or at least allow) the use of the singular they (with plural verb forms).
- ibejoeb 5y ago
  > "They" uses the plural verb form in pretty much all situations, even if it only refers to a single person. This is the problem. I'd like to remind everyone that the context is the usability of a government services website. > This should be pretty intuitive to most native English speakers How about non-native speakers? > most bodies encourage (or at least allow) the use of the singular they The British style guides advise against it. I'd ask everyone, rather than repeatedly reminding me that in casual speech we can use different constructions, what is the benefit of using this particular construction in a formal context wherein comprehension is paramount?
  - wiedelphine 5y ago
    Given the amount of user research that is done on the guidance that is added to the design system, I would imagine they've tested it with users and found it works. It also fits in with their style guide, which talks about writing in a conversational style, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-uk#plain-english https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-u...