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I've enjoyed reading their thoughtful guidelines for common forms and pages. On the whole, it all seems like good advice that can be applied to any website. The

by als0 5y ago

I've enjoyed reading their thoughtful guidelines for common forms and pages. On the whole, it all seems like good advice that can be applied to any website. They also talk about the pain points and potential research areas. Here's one example https://design-system.service.gov.uk/patterns/gender-or-sex/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/patterns/gender-or-sex/

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
2Gkashmiri 5y ago
https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system-backlog/issues/69 https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system-backlog/issu... am i the only one seeing this tongue-in-cheek thing?
- caffeine 5y ago
  Based on the issue number, tongue is not in cheek…
  - 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
    and yet im the one being downvoted. this isnt funny
    - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
      But is it a problem worth solving?
NoGravitas 5y ago
ibejoeb 5y ago
>if your service allows people to jointly apply for something, you might need to refer to both the user and the person they’re applying with. In these cases, use the person’s name, ‘they’ or ‘their’. This is incorrect. We are talking about government services. Language needs to be precise. There are cases where there is a difference between an individual, a couple, and a group of 3 or more. There is also a very tricky case for non-native speakers and those that are not aware of the culture from which these nuances arise. The guidance must direct the implementors to use specific language. If confronting a situation in which a pronoun gives rise to ambiguity, do not use a pronoun. So, "if your service allows people to jointly apply for something," define it. Is it "your service allows two people to jointly apply," or "your service allows a group of people to apply," or something else? Using "they" is inappropriate. Something like "you and the other individual" is appropriate.
- jkrems 5y ago
  I think you misread that paragraph. It refers to situations like this: "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual. Do *they* live in the same household as you?" Yes, you could also write out "the other individual" every time. The guideline doesn't prevent that. But it says not to use "he" or "she" (or "he/she") to refer to the other individual.
  - ibejoeb 5y ago
    I didn't misread. I like your example. "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual." The other person is, grammatically, the third person singular. "Do they" does not agree. The correct form with a pronoun is "Does [3sg]." But we can avoid using a pronoun simply by using the noun. "Does the other person" is correct, accurately describes the scenario, and is comprehensible at essential English reading levels, which is incredibly important.
    - valenaut 5y ago
      Singular "they" is pretty widely accepted today. Nothing wrong about it. "You" can also be singular or plural. > Is “they” singular or plural? The answer is both. As of 2019, most big style guides—including the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA style manual, and the APA style manual—accept the usage of the singular they. [0] [0] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/
      - ibejoeb 5y ago
        I agree with you for the purposes of colloquial speech. However, this is formal, and the formality serves a specific purpose. Somewhat tangentially, we're talking about UK services, and you're citing American style guides. The major British style guides advise against singular "they." Since we're talking about usability and accessibility, I'm going hammer on the point that this needs to be accessible at baseline reading comprehension levels. Singular "they" is generally not taught either in primary or ESL environments. If it does become part of standard education, we still have generations of people who have not experienced it.
bifrosty 5y ago
- crindy 5y ago
  > given that sex is immutable and is really only a choice between male and female Putting all the gender stuff aside, biological sex may be immutable but it isn’t binary unless you’re willing to exclude the edge cases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
  - bifrosty 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - lmkg 5y ago
      There's still room for ambiguity or disagreement, though. Just from the top-level: Does "biological sex" refer to chromosomal sex or to anatomical sex? By either definition most (all?) individuals will be closer to the norm for one or the other. But in a handful of cases, including the one that you linked to, an individual will be male by one definition and female by the other. I don't see a particular reason to favor one definition over the other when talking about biological sex.
      - bifrosty 5y ago
        There's room for some scientific disagreement in a minority of edge cases, sure, but the individual I linked to is considered female because she underwent female sexual differentiation, and ended up with a female reproductive system. Having an XY karyotype is just a proxy - albeit a typically very accurate one - for determining sex. The important thing is which of the two pathways of reproductive system development dominated. Ultimately, this system is what sex is all about. Here's a decent article on this topic, considering the applicability of various definitions of sex: https://theparadoxinstitute.com/blog/2021/04/10/what-are-sexes/ https://theparadoxinstitute.com/blog/2021/04/10/what-are-sex...

by als0 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

2Gkashmiri 5y ago

https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system-backlog/issues/69 https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system-backlog/issu... am i the only one seeing this tongue-in-cheek thing?

caffeine 5y ago
Based on the issue number, tongue is not in cheek…
- 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
  and yet im the one being downvoted. this isnt funny
  - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
    But is it a problem worth solving?

NoGravitas 5y ago

ibejoeb 5y ago

>if your service allows people to jointly apply for something, you might need to refer to both the user and the person they’re applying with. In these cases, use the person’s name, ‘they’ or ‘their’. This is incorrect. We are talking about government services. Language needs to be precise. There are cases where there is a difference between an individual, a couple, and a group of 3 or more. There is also a very tricky case for non-native speakers and those that are not aware of the culture from which these nuances arise. The guidance must direct the implementors to use specific language. If confronting a situation in which a pronoun gives rise to ambiguity, do not use a pronoun. So, "if your service allows people to jointly apply for something," define it. Is it "your service allows two people to jointly apply," or "your service allows a group of people to apply," or something else? Using "they" is inappropriate. Something like "you and the other individual" is appropriate.

jkrems 5y ago
I think you misread that paragraph. It refers to situations like this: "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual. Do *they* live in the same household as you?" Yes, you could also write out "the other individual" every time. The guideline doesn't prevent that. But it says not to use "he" or "she" (or "he/she") to refer to the other individual.
- ibejoeb 5y ago
  I didn't misread. I like your example. "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual." The other person is, grammatically, the third person singular. "Do they" does not agree. The correct form with a pronoun is "Does [3sg]." But we can avoid using a pronoun simply by using the noun. "Does the other person" is correct, accurately describes the scenario, and is comprehensible at essential English reading levels, which is incredibly important.
  - valenaut 5y ago
    Singular "they" is pretty widely accepted today. Nothing wrong about it. "You" can also be singular or plural. > Is “they” singular or plural? The answer is both. As of 2019, most big style guides—including the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA style manual, and the APA style manual—accept the usage of the singular they. [0] [0] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/
    - ibejoeb 5y ago
      I agree with you for the purposes of colloquial speech. However, this is formal, and the formality serves a specific purpose. Somewhat tangentially, we're talking about UK services, and you're citing American style guides. The major British style guides advise against singular "they." Since we're talking about usability and accessibility, I'm going hammer on the point that this needs to be accessible at baseline reading comprehension levels. Singular "they" is generally not taught either in primary or ESL environments. If it does become part of standard education, we still have generations of people who have not experienced it.

bifrosty 5y ago

crindy 5y ago
> given that sex is immutable and is really only a choice between male and female Putting all the gender stuff aside, biological sex may be immutable but it isn’t binary unless you’re willing to exclude the edge cases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
- bifrosty 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - lmkg 5y ago
    There's still room for ambiguity or disagreement, though. Just from the top-level: Does "biological sex" refer to chromosomal sex or to anatomical sex? By either definition most (all?) individuals will be closer to the norm for one or the other. But in a handful of cases, including the one that you linked to, an individual will be male by one definition and female by the other. I don't see a particular reason to favor one definition over the other when talking about biological sex.
    - bifrosty 5y ago
      There's room for some scientific disagreement in a minority of edge cases, sure, but the individual I linked to is considered female because she underwent female sexual differentiation, and ended up with a female reproductive system. Having an XY karyotype is just a proxy - albeit a typically very accurate one - for determining sex. The important thing is which of the two pathways of reproductive system development dominated. Ultimately, this system is what sex is all about. Here's a decent article on this topic, considering the applicability of various definitions of sex: https://theparadoxinstitute.com/blog/2021/04/10/what-are-sexes/ https://theparadoxinstitute.com/blog/2021/04/10/what-are-sex...