4 ms·

As usual this fails to mention property tax and how California is lower (sometimes dramatically lower) than other states.

the_optimist 5y ago
* With great generational distinction. As a new entrant you can enjoy both high property taxes and high income taxes.
tharne 5y ago
I'll take high local taxes over high state taxes any day. It's an order of magnitude easier to influence decisions in my town vs. my state. The other thing is that it's also much easier to leave my town if I don't like the decisions made. Sure, I can move states too, but that's a much bigger hassle than moving 10 minutes down the road.
- KerrAvon 5y ago
  Do you have a practical example of that influence actually mattering to you personally? The thing about the property taxes is that if you move to someplace like Austin where the property values are skyrocketing, your property taxes can jump a ridiculous amount in a single year. You're completely insulated from that in CA (once you _own_ property, which is obviously the hard part in the SF Bay Area etc).
  - tharne 5y ago
    I live in a pretty small town, so a handful of people complaining loudly does tend to get noticed. I realize that this is not true of larger jurisdictions like Austin. Edit: Was asked for an example, here it is. In the aftermath of the protests in 2020, there was some talk of removing the police officers that are assigned full time to the schools. Parents pushed back and we still have those officers in place.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  I donno. Local governments get hooked on those revenues but are extremely susceptible to revenue shocks, as they have a much smaller tax base. So things like a single business closing can cause budget shortfalls. And I've seen a common go-to for increasing revenue is by policing for profit. I've also lived in towns with corrupt local governments, and you can't do shit about it. Good luck getting people to come out to vote. And when the good ol' boys club takes the mayor and sheriff offices, and fills the roles with their friends/family, it can be hard to oust them. Prove that the tickets you're getting are due to running against they mayor on a platform of change, and not because you were speeding for the 7th time this week. It got so bad in the town I grew up in that people were pushing to dissolve the police and local government. Even my hardcore right-wing, retired police officer uncle was in favor of dissolving the police department.
- yongjik 5y ago
  I can't agree, considering that California's major problems stem from "my city over everyone else" politics. Cannot build a functioning public transit system if every microcity along the way has different opinions. People need affordable housing? Can't build them here, it should be some other city's problem. California would have been in a much better shape if the state government could tell these cities to shut up.
cronix 5y ago
Does an individual cherry picked tax matter in the grand scheme if the total tax burden (all taxes added together) is higher?
- Melatonic 5y ago
  If your comparing major metro areas it can make a huge difference - lots of people talk about moving from California to metro areas in Texas and (assuming they are trying to be homeowners in both places) their tax burden will likely actually be higher in Texas due to the higher property taxes (just the base percentage). And then of course if you own your home in CA for a long time you will end up paying a ridiculously low tax on a high value home (which is another whole can of worms)
jdhn 5y ago
I'm curious what you think about Prop 13, and if its repeal would cause those low property taxes to rise.
- KerrAvon 5y ago
  Outright repealing Prop 13 would cause chaos; there are too many voters who benefit from it and it stabilizes things considerably for those who are bought in. But you could rebalance things: completely remove the cap if the residence is non-primary, for example.
  - nullc 5y ago
    Many other states (most?) have homestead exceptions that essentially achieve the Prop13 stability but are limited to a single primary domicile. No commercial properties, no investment properties, no vacation properties-- and the ability to preserve the benefit when you move tends to be much more limited (a difference of debatable merit). It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the alternative to prop13 is market-rate set taxes on people's homes.
    - Melatonic 5y ago
      Yea the commercial properties is the real kicker - who the hell thought that was a good idea?
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    Increase the percentage that taxes can be raised each year, and things will slowly correct. There's no free lunch. Lower property taxes mean higher sales and income taxes to compensate. The reverse is true too; when you go to states with no income tax, usually they have high property and sales taxes. All you're deciding is the distribution of tax payments.
    - nullc 5y ago
      Sales tax in Florida (no income tax) is lower than California's. Property tax rates are somewhat higher nominally in florida but homes in California are about 4x more expensive than Florida, so the total amount paid in taxes in Florida is much lower (both in total and relative to median income). I don't think your comment is correct generally-- yes, the difference isn't quite as large as you might guess by looking at the bare rates but no income tax states still have significantly lower tax burdens.
YATA0 5y ago
Sure, it's 1.5% instead of 2.5% (Florida). The average house price is $800k vs $200k... do the math. Property tax is much more in total, and percentage of household income in California than Florida.

the_optimist 5y ago

* With great generational distinction. As a new entrant you can enjoy both high property taxes and high income taxes.

tharne 5y ago

I'll take high local taxes over high state taxes any day. It's an order of magnitude easier to influence decisions in my town vs. my state. The other thing is that it's also much easier to leave my town if I don't like the decisions made. Sure, I can move states too, but that's a much bigger hassle than moving 10 minutes down the road.

KerrAvon 5y ago
Do you have a practical example of that influence actually mattering to you personally? The thing about the property taxes is that if you move to someplace like Austin where the property values are skyrocketing, your property taxes can jump a ridiculous amount in a single year. You're completely insulated from that in CA (once you _own_ property, which is obviously the hard part in the SF Bay Area etc).
- tharne 5y ago
  I live in a pretty small town, so a handful of people complaining loudly does tend to get noticed. I realize that this is not true of larger jurisdictions like Austin. Edit: Was asked for an example, here it is. In the aftermath of the protests in 2020, there was some talk of removing the police officers that are assigned full time to the schools. Parents pushed back and we still have those officers in place.
mywittyname 5y ago
I donno. Local governments get hooked on those revenues but are extremely susceptible to revenue shocks, as they have a much smaller tax base. So things like a single business closing can cause budget shortfalls. And I've seen a common go-to for increasing revenue is by policing for profit. I've also lived in towns with corrupt local governments, and you can't do shit about it. Good luck getting people to come out to vote. And when the good ol' boys club takes the mayor and sheriff offices, and fills the roles with their friends/family, it can be hard to oust them. Prove that the tickets you're getting are due to running against they mayor on a platform of change, and not because you were speeding for the 7th time this week. It got so bad in the town I grew up in that people were pushing to dissolve the police and local government. Even my hardcore right-wing, retired police officer uncle was in favor of dissolving the police department.
yongjik 5y ago
I can't agree, considering that California's major problems stem from "my city over everyone else" politics. Cannot build a functioning public transit system if every microcity along the way has different opinions. People need affordable housing? Can't build them here, it should be some other city's problem. California would have been in a much better shape if the state government could tell these cities to shut up.

cronix 5y ago

Does an individual cherry picked tax matter in the grand scheme if the total tax burden (all taxes added together) is higher?

Melatonic 5y ago
If your comparing major metro areas it can make a huge difference - lots of people talk about moving from California to metro areas in Texas and (assuming they are trying to be homeowners in both places) their tax burden will likely actually be higher in Texas due to the higher property taxes (just the base percentage). And then of course if you own your home in CA for a long time you will end up paying a ridiculously low tax on a high value home (which is another whole can of worms)

jdhn 5y ago

I'm curious what you think about Prop 13, and if its repeal would cause those low property taxes to rise.

KerrAvon 5y ago
Outright repealing Prop 13 would cause chaos; there are too many voters who benefit from it and it stabilizes things considerably for those who are bought in. But you could rebalance things: completely remove the cap if the residence is non-primary, for example.
- nullc 5y ago
  Many other states (most?) have homestead exceptions that essentially achieve the Prop13 stability but are limited to a single primary domicile. No commercial properties, no investment properties, no vacation properties-- and the ability to preserve the benefit when you move tends to be much more limited (a difference of debatable merit). It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the alternative to prop13 is market-rate set taxes on people's homes.
  - Melatonic 5y ago
    Yea the commercial properties is the real kicker - who the hell thought that was a good idea?
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Increase the percentage that taxes can be raised each year, and things will slowly correct. There's no free lunch. Lower property taxes mean higher sales and income taxes to compensate. The reverse is true too; when you go to states with no income tax, usually they have high property and sales taxes. All you're deciding is the distribution of tax payments.
  - nullc 5y ago
    Sales tax in Florida (no income tax) is lower than California's. Property tax rates are somewhat higher nominally in florida but homes in California are about 4x more expensive than Florida, so the total amount paid in taxes in Florida is much lower (both in total and relative to median income). I don't think your comment is correct generally-- yes, the difference isn't quite as large as you might guess by looking at the bare rates but no income tax states still have significantly lower tax burdens.

YATA0 5y ago

Sure, it's 1.5% instead of 2.5% (Florida). The average house price is $800k vs $200k... do the math. Property tax is much more in total, and percentage of household income in California than Florida.