10 ms·

I don't get it, personally. Yes, Stallman's a loon - although as an aside I think that every good movement needs its loons. Who's going to say "you know what? I

by sgentle 15y ago

I don't get it, personally. Yes, Stallman's a loon - although as an aside I think that every good movement needs its loons. Who's going to say "you know what? I believe in Free Software so much that I will use nothing else, and publicly and harshly declare that anyone doing otherwise is a moron and a traitor to the future of humanity"? Anyone who is willing to sacrifice the usefulness of the last 30 years of proprietary tech to make a point has to be a bit barmy. But who else will make that point? All progress depends on unreasonable men. And I agree that it would be helpful to have a moderate voice in Free Software. I use a Mac - sorry, it's really nice to use and I code a lot. I like my Kindle - sorry, it's better than the others and I read a lot. I live and work with proprietary software, but I believe in Free Software too. WebKit is popular because of Apple and Google. OS X is the most popular BSD, and the most popular consumer Unix. Non-free and free can and have worked together to mutual benefit. Is there anyone out there who can help me walk that line? If Larry is proposing to make that organisation, I would welcome it with open arms. But what of this Jobs nonsense? Are we so timid and flammable that we can't handle a complex opinion that we don't agree with? Can you not accept that Jobs was a great leader who didn't deserve to die, but that he left a scary, proprietary footprint all over the mobile and tablet space? "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone." is an opinion I don't agree with, but I don't think it's ludicrous, tactless and heartless. Not everyone has to respect the things I respect, and feelings don't suddenly trump debate because of death. Jobs is one of the hacker community's sacred cows, and we wouldn't accept this level of sanctification on any other topic. I'm sure when Bill Gates or the Dalai Lama dies, there will be posts saying "let's not forget that Windows Vista was awful and religion is the other opiate of Tibet" Will they cause the same outcry?

jpadvo 15y ago
The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we forget the damage that Jobs' work had on the Free Software movement. His pioneered the software walled garden, which destroys freedom and choice. And he targeted it at people who would not understand what they were sacrificing by giving up their freedoms. We can only hope that his successors make Apple a more free company, or failing that, are not as effective at spreading it as he was." Wasn't that better? And it communicated substantively the same thing, but without all the name calling and the seeming glee over the death of another human. Disclaimer: I typed this on my Macbook Air. Edit: One more thing to add. Saying "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone" is tripe. Being gone is a euphemism for being dead. The reason we mourn when a loved one dies is precisely because that means they are gone. Maybe RMS sees a subtle distinction between death and gone-ness in his head. But I promise you that people in grief see absolutely no distinction between the death and the loss of the person they mourn.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  It's ironic- it would seem to be RMS who is getting carried away. A great man has died, and all RMS can think about is what this means for the Free Software movement? To me, this discredits him more than anything I have ever heard him say. Software is not more important than life. Disclaimer: Actively avoids Apple products
  - aaronmorey 15y ago
    I think this is a microcosm of a problem I've seen in the open source area in general... a preference for code over people. Open source software won't take over by being 1.86x faster and using a totally sweet heap sort algorithm. I'm a geek and I find that kind of thing interesting at an intellectual level, but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. "Normal" people absolutely don't care and won't put up with the hassle. With Steve gone, there's a taste-shaped hole in the entire technology world that I can't see anyone stepping in and taking over. Until the open source world gets its own Steve Jobs -- someone out there who starts focusing relentlessly on the users (how to make software "just work" and look/feel great at the same time), it's never going to unseat the dominant players (as much as I might want it to).
    - 0x12 15y ago
      > but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of fish but you can't really blame the Linux driver writers for that, they need information to work with and if manufacturers are not going to supply that info it needs to be painstakingly recovered, which is not always possible and almost always incomplete to some extent.
      - rufugee 15y ago
mrb 15y ago
Loon is NOT an adjective that you can apply to Stallman. loon n 1: a worthless lazy fellow He is certainly not that. He founded the GNU project. Authored the GPL. Wrote dozens of open source applications. And overall contributed a lot to free software. Choose your words carefully!
- RobAtticus 15y ago
  Loon is used as slang to mean somebody who is a bit off the wall or crazy, as in that person belongs in the "loony bin" (mental hospital).
  - WalterGR 15y ago
    It's unclear to me why you're being so harshly downvoted. All that's needed is a quick trip to Wiktionary (or your favorite dictionary) to see that you're correct. EDIT: Well, I should note that you're correct about the definition. I don't know about the etymology.
- snth 15y ago
  Loon: a silly or foolish person. From my apple dictionary.
  - VonGuard 15y ago
    It's also a bird. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loon The bird does, notably, have better hygiene than RMS.
- balakk 15y ago
  I always thought loon was a shortened term for "lunatic". Not that I'm calling RMS one.
sliverstorm 15y ago
I am not everyone, but I believe that people deserve a little respect when they pass, even if they antagonized you in life. There are perhaps exceptions in those who are essentially disgraces to the human race, but in general... Death is the one thing that binds us all. We all share the same destination. Have a little class. Even Gates had something nice to say, and I'm sure if Gates passed first, Jobs would have had something as well. Death is not a time for bitterness.
bonch 15y ago
How long can you justify Stallman's behavior as Stallman being Stallman before you recognize the damage it does to the movement?
jsz0 15y ago
I think that every good movement needs its loons. This is probably true but when they become an embarrassment and a liability it's better to distance yourself from them as much as possible. His latest comments are particularly insensitive but it goes a lot deeper than that. Most of the stuff he writes leaves me with a more negative view of free software. He basically wants people to reject most modern software/technology/services and devote their lives to being as spiritually pure as himself. Never-mind. I'll just use the closed software instead because that's not a commitment I'm willing to make. If everyone in his organization feels that way then it's doomed. He's now an intensely negative force.
- wnight 15y ago
  > He basically wants people to reject most modern software/technology/services No. If he wants anything from the average person, instead of for them, it's that they pay attention to the value of their freedom (to keep using your software when the key server goes offline, for instance) now instead of later when it's too late. > Most of the stuff he writes leaves me with a more negative view of free software. Of course. You resent what you see as his spiritual purity in rejecting Trojan horse DRMed products that lock you in because you know you aren't capable of going without something you want now for greater gain in the future. You realize that going with the locked-down answer is as smart as selling your house for the short-term gain, but unlike Stallman, are unable to control your urges. Thus you hate him, and those who can. Now, we both could be reading more into it than there is, but this is how your over-the-top hatred of a free software programmer comes across. > This is probably true but when they become an embarrassment and a liability it's better to distance yourself from them as much as possible. I'm sure you don't put 1/100th of the effort into actually attacking real evil people as you do in knocking down the other teams' supposedly sacred cows. Or are you on the streets/otherwise fighting for freedom in Bahrain, Egypt, etc, freeing Bradley Manning, stopping censorship, women/children/men/the elderly's rights and all the other good fights, and this is just what's left for Stallman? How is it that someone on such a high horse lacks perspective?
  - ordinary 15y ago
    > Of course. You resent what you see as his spiritual purity in rejecting Trojan horse DRMed products that lock you in because you know you aren't capable of going without something you want now for greater gain in the future. > You realize that going with the locked-down answer is as smart as selling your house for the short-term gain, but unlike Stallman, are unable to control your urges. Thus you hate him, and those who can. I am reminded of this quote: "Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged. It is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of application." - Man Ray
botj 15y ago
Agreed. Without the extreme left, by definition the moderate viewpoint will slider further and further to the right.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

by sgentle 15y ago

jpadvo 15y ago

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we forget the damage that Jobs' work had on the Free Software movement. His pioneered the software walled garden, which destroys freedom and choice. And he targeted it at people who would not understand what they were sacrificing by giving up their freedoms. We can only hope that his successors make Apple a more free company, or failing that, are not as effective at spreading it as he was." Wasn't that better? And it communicated substantively the same thing, but without all the name calling and the seeming glee over the death of another human. Disclaimer: I typed this on my Macbook Air. Edit: One more thing to add. Saying "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone" is tripe. Being gone is a euphemism for being dead. The reason we mourn when a loved one dies is precisely because that means they are gone. Maybe RMS sees a subtle distinction between death and gone-ness in his head. But I promise you that people in grief see absolutely no distinction between the death and the loss of the person they mourn.

sliverstorm 15y ago
It's ironic- it would seem to be RMS who is getting carried away. A great man has died, and all RMS can think about is what this means for the Free Software movement? To me, this discredits him more than anything I have ever heard him say. Software is not more important than life. Disclaimer: Actively avoids Apple products
- aaronmorey 15y ago
  I think this is a microcosm of a problem I've seen in the open source area in general... a preference for code over people. Open source software won't take over by being 1.86x faster and using a totally sweet heap sort algorithm. I'm a geek and I find that kind of thing interesting at an intellectual level, but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. "Normal" people absolutely don't care and won't put up with the hassle. With Steve gone, there's a taste-shaped hole in the entire technology world that I can't see anyone stepping in and taking over. Until the open source world gets its own Steve Jobs -- someone out there who starts focusing relentlessly on the users (how to make software "just work" and look/feel great at the same time), it's never going to unseat the dominant players (as much as I might want it to).
  - 0x12 15y ago
    > but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of fish but you can't really blame the Linux driver writers for that, they need information to work with and if manufacturers are not going to supply that info it needs to be painstakingly recovered, which is not always possible and almost always incomplete to some extent.
    - rufugee 15y ago

mrb 15y ago

Loon is NOT an adjective that you can apply to Stallman. loon n 1: a worthless lazy fellow He is certainly not that. He founded the GNU project. Authored the GPL. Wrote dozens of open source applications. And overall contributed a lot to free software. Choose your words carefully!

RobAtticus 15y ago
Loon is used as slang to mean somebody who is a bit off the wall or crazy, as in that person belongs in the "loony bin" (mental hospital).
- WalterGR 15y ago
  It's unclear to me why you're being so harshly downvoted. All that's needed is a quick trip to Wiktionary (or your favorite dictionary) to see that you're correct. EDIT: Well, I should note that you're correct about the definition. I don't know about the etymology.
snth 15y ago
Loon: a silly or foolish person. From my apple dictionary.
- VonGuard 15y ago
  It's also a bird. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loon The bird does, notably, have better hygiene than RMS.
balakk 15y ago
I always thought loon was a shortened term for "lunatic". Not that I'm calling RMS one.

sliverstorm 15y ago

I am not everyone, but I believe that people deserve a little respect when they pass, even if they antagonized you in life. There are perhaps exceptions in those who are essentially disgraces to the human race, but in general... Death is the one thing that binds us all. We all share the same destination. Have a little class. Even Gates had something nice to say, and I'm sure if Gates passed first, Jobs would have had something as well. Death is not a time for bitterness.

bonch 15y ago

How long can you justify Stallman's behavior as Stallman being Stallman before you recognize the damage it does to the movement?

jsz0 15y ago

I think that every good movement needs its loons. This is probably true but when they become an embarrassment and a liability it's better to distance yourself from them as much as possible. His latest comments are particularly insensitive but it goes a lot deeper than that. Most of the stuff he writes leaves me with a more negative view of free software. He basically wants people to reject most modern software/technology/services and devote their lives to being as spiritually pure as himself. Never-mind. I'll just use the closed software instead because that's not a commitment I'm willing to make. If everyone in his organization feels that way then it's doomed. He's now an intensely negative force.

wnight 15y ago
> He basically wants people to reject most modern software/technology/services No. If he wants anything from the average person, instead of for them, it's that they pay attention to the value of their freedom (to keep using your software when the key server goes offline, for instance) now instead of later when it's too late. > Most of the stuff he writes leaves me with a more negative view of free software. Of course. You resent what you see as his spiritual purity in rejecting Trojan horse DRMed products that lock you in because you know you aren't capable of going without something you want now for greater gain in the future. You realize that going with the locked-down answer is as smart as selling your house for the short-term gain, but unlike Stallman, are unable to control your urges. Thus you hate him, and those who can. Now, we both could be reading more into it than there is, but this is how your over-the-top hatred of a free software programmer comes across. > This is probably true but when they become an embarrassment and a liability it's better to distance yourself from them as much as possible. I'm sure you don't put 1/100th of the effort into actually attacking real evil people as you do in knocking down the other teams' supposedly sacred cows. Or are you on the streets/otherwise fighting for freedom in Bahrain, Egypt, etc, freeing Bradley Manning, stopping censorship, women/children/men/the elderly's rights and all the other good fights, and this is just what's left for Stallman? How is it that someone on such a high horse lacks perspective?
- ordinary 15y ago
  > Of course. You resent what you see as his spiritual purity in rejecting Trojan horse DRMed products that lock you in because you know you aren't capable of going without something you want now for greater gain in the future. > You realize that going with the locked-down answer is as smart as selling your house for the short-term gain, but unlike Stallman, are unable to control your urges. Thus you hate him, and those who can. I am reminded of this quote: "Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged. It is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of application." - Man Ray

botj 15y ago

Agreed. Without the extreme left, by definition the moderate viewpoint will slider further and further to the right.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]