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Then you vote to ban insurance discrimination on certain kinds of data. In California, for example, employers are forbidden to ask or use data on candidate sala

Then you vote to ban insurance discrimination on certain kinds of data. In California, for example, employers are forbidden to ask or use data on candidate salaries in their hiring process. In the US, health insurance companies are forbidden from discriminating based on pre-existing conditions. A huge amount of middle and upper class people already voluntarily use cashless methods to spend & earn money. A huge amount of businesses are basically online-only and don't really support cash payments. Visa & Mastercard etc already engage in data sharing. Cash is just too inconvenient and will slowly recede over time, if you want to avoid discriminatory outcomes then advocate for legislation directly.

wolverine876 5y ago
> Cash is just too inconvenient It might be inconvenient for some things (e.g., online purchases, buying houses or cars), but buying something at the store has worked very well for centuries; it's quick and easy. People on HN can't figure out cash? Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.
- decafninja 5y ago
  When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Negative side effects of using cash also include having to carry a bulging wallet when I'm constantly trying to minimize the stuff I have to carry. Side effects of using credit card is that all my transactions are tracked, but the side effect of that side effect is that I know exactly what I'm spending where. And no, I'd rather not do a manual bookkeeping routine, which is what I'd have to do if I used cash. Yes, there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. Maybe there is some far off scenario in the future where it can be used against me, but I view worrying about that remote possibility as premature optimization. I have far greater things to worry about. I understand the benefits of using cash even if I don't find those benefits valuable for myself personally. But I don't understand how someone can find using cash more convenient than swiping a credit card.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. > If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. > there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
    - decafninja 5y ago
      > Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. In my ultraslim card wallet, where other than my driver's license, it is the only occupant. Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. She carries a purse, so it is less of an issue for her. Plus these days, especially when I'm not driving, I find myself not even carrying that wallet - just my phone, via which I can pay via Apple Pay. Doesn't cover every single payment scenario, but it does cover enough - and increasingly, more. > What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people? See my comment earlier about premature optimization. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in China or some other authoritarian country, but as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        > Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. Why the need for hyperbole? Plenty of people have used cash for generations without enormous wallets; there just isn't that much volume to some cash. It's not that hard to use. >> What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people? > as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future. There might be more going on in the US than you think. Look at what happens to immigrants, Muslims (esp. during the GWOT), people who challenge government authority, political opposition, etc. The prior president actively solicted intelligence on political opposition and repeatedly threatened to jail them. Today, here's an article I just read: https://www.justsecurity.org/80813/mayorkas-must-rein-in-homeland-security-investigations/ https://www.justsecurity.org/80813/mayorkas-must-rein-in-hom... If we give the tools of oppression to government, and they start using them, how will you stop them? What will stop them?
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  A large portion of the folks I know in their 20s in NYC don't even carry cash anymore unless there's a specific need for it on a given day (taking a class that's taught by an individual who takes cash, for example). Why worry about a bunch of pieces of paper or round metal discs when everything is a tap of your watch or phone away? I don't even use my metrocard anymore since the subway started using tap to pay.
- irrational 5y ago
  I’m over 50. I can figure out cash. But I hate cash. I hate carrying it around. I hate having to go to an ATM to get more. I hate counting cash and getting change. I hate that there isn’t a digital record of what I purchased and when. I’ve avoided using cash for more years than I can remember. Bring on the cashless society.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > hate Such intensity!
    - irrational 5y ago
      Sorry, how about "passionately despise"?
- hluska 5y ago
  I’m not an expert in this area and this is based mostly upon memory. But I’m of an age where I remember the introduction of ATMs into my communities. Cash used to be cheaper, even if you took it out of a different bank’s machine. Nowadays, I pay more than $5 on any withdrawal from a machine that isn’t affiliated with my bank. I live in a small city with around 200,000 people. I’m only aware of seven machines in my city that are affiliated with my bank. So, if I decide to get cash, I have to decide in advance. Or I’m at risk of paying 5% to get my own $100 out of my bank. Or, I can pay with a card for $0 for unlimited transactions. When I look at that cost attached to cash, I’m reminded of research about how spending digital doesn’t impact people the same way as spending cash. At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, do you think this might be a marketing campaign? Obviously I don’t know, but if I knew people spent more on cards than with cash, and if consumer debt made me rich, I’d do everything I could to convince people to use cards. Edit - I think this is the first time I’ve ever gone on a “when I was young, things were cheaper and better” rant. Aging beats the alternative but that’s the only good thing about it. :)
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > I’m at risk of paying 5% to get my own $100 out of my bank. Or, I can pay with a card for $0 for unlimited transactions. But isn't that actually pretty comparable? You don't see the few percent extra you're paying with the credit card because it gets hidden in the price. It's probably not all that different than what you're paying to get cash from an out-of-network ATM (I just get cash back at POS). To be fair, usually the cash buyer also gets screwed into paying for the convenience of everyone else using credit cards. For a while that was actually written into the merchant agreement, to favor credit card usage and ensure hefty profits for Visa & MC.
    - aix1 5y ago
      This analysis ignores the cost to the merchant of handling cash. I don't know how high it is. I've seen various numbers thrown around but it's hard to tell what's accurate and what's not. What is clear, however, is that the cost is non-zero.
- SllX 5y ago
  > People on HN can't figure out cash? > > Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience. Why not? I’ve worked in jobs in my life where I dealt with cash, had to count a register down to the last coin, check receipts, do cash runs to a bank and give the correct change. I even received cash tips. I choose not to use cash because it would require me to go out of my way to an ATM and use it, then keep track of the amount of cash I have on me and make subsequent trips to the ATM as necessary. I could, and I used to do that, but it’s not something I did because I enjoyed my trips to the ATM. I did it so I could get a medium of exchange for my daily necessities, and now I don’t do that.
  - rob74 5y ago
    You don't usually have to make an extra "trip to the ATM" to get cash, you can combine it with shopping or other errands. In Germany many supermarket chains now even have a "withdraw cash for free when you pay with your card" service, which is very convenient. And "keeping track of the amount of cash you have" is simply looking into your wallet when buying something and seeing that you only have one or two small-ish bills left in there. I agree though that cash handling is more of a hassle for the ones accepting cash than for the ones paying with it, and that's probably one of the drivers in getting rid of it...
    - diffeomorphism 5y ago
      > smallish bills That works in Germany but not in the US. Euro bills are easy to distinguish by color and size and start at 5. With dollars you have a stack of greenish paper, many of which are $1 bills. Manageable, but definitely more inconvenient than Euros.
    - yardstick 5y ago
      > In Germany many supermarket chains now even have a "withdraw cash for free when you pay with your card" service, which is very convenient. They do this in lots of other countries too (UK, AU, NZ to name a few). Doesn’t work for me anymore as I shop online, including groceries.
    - rblatz 5y ago
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  > People on HN can't figure out cash? > Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience. I feel like using the phase "figure out" and then saying it's not about convenience is directly contradictory. I can't think of any way where handing someone my plastic index card, swiping it through a machine, and returning it is ever less convenient than shuffling through cash, counting it, handing It over, having the other person count it, calculate change, count change, and hand over various paper bills and coins that I don't want to be carrying.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    But it's just not that hard to use cash, no matter how long you make the sentence. I've asked a few people: what interest do people have in pushing so hard against it? Does everyone here work for Stripe?
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      Cards have existed long before stripe. Convenience isn't about "hard" vs "not hard". It's "more convenient" vs "less convenient". And as I just laid out, the only scenario I can think that cash is more convenient is when power/internet is not available. I carry some cash, but the only times I ever use it is for tipping and vending machines.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        Look at the intensity and exaggeration in the comments on this forum. People feel very strongly about it and push hard!
- acjohnson55 5y ago
  Cash sucks. I pretty much stopped using it in the late 2000s. Then, I moved to NYC in 2010, and at that time, it was common for places to be cash only or add surcharges to card payments. I had to re-adapt to cash-based living, and I was not a fan. Finding a bank that did ATM fee refunds helped a lot, but it was still much more of a pain than simply using plastic.
- headsoup 5y ago
  It is absolutely convenience. It is most of the reason people continue to willingly hand over their privacy and autonomy. And, the key bit is ensuring it's a short term equation, so people don't evaluate the long term risk or implications. People just never consider that they might be in a future situation where their convenience choices could be used against them in a troubling way. And they just plain don't care (as evident in the comments here) about those it impacts negatively now
- theshrike79 5y ago
  How is paying $14.53 at the register "quick and easy" with cash? Do you just shove a $20 to the cashier and go "keep the change"? Or do you start to dig around for that elusive 5c coin from the bottom of your wallet? In not-US I can just shove my watch/phone/card at the reader and it's done. Exact change, no fuss.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > How is paying $14.53 at the register "quick and easy" with cash? Try it - it takes a minute. Really! I've never seen so many people become suddenly incompetent.
    - theshrike79 5y ago
      Why would I spend a minute when I can do it in under 5 seconds?
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        There are many reasons discussed here, but the point is that cash is mindlessly easy to use, as it has been for generations.
- diffeomorphism 5y ago
  Change is inconvenient, yes. Both for the store (keeping a stock of coins etc.) and for customers. Even more so in the US, which optimizes for pre-tax 9.99, so 10+whatever after tax. Also "cashback" on credit cards but rarely discount for cash (I have only seen that at restaurants).
- msla 5y ago
  > Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience. Someone might very well kill me for my cash. Or, possibly, threaten to kill me for my cash, and actually kill me so I couldn't identify them later. If they see I don't have cash, the odds of that might well go down. Worth a shot.
rland 5y ago
I trust the physical impossibility of tracking cash over the hypothetical enforcement of legislation any day. Why risk it? How many employers have used data on candidate salaries in violation of the law in California? How would we ever know? There are many benefits of using cash: it's very secure, as long as I'm sensible. It's anonymous. It costs those that I do business with less to maintain (Visa charges 2%. 2 percent! of revenue!). People who I tip like me more because I tip in cash. Businesses I do business with like me more because I give them cash. Not to mention, I can do business with anyone I want if I deal with cash -- not so with electronic services. Look to the case of Germany for why cash is so important.
Aurelius3 5y ago
Once you give your data away no regulation can keep it safe, it is already compromised the second it is given.

wolverine876 5y ago

> Cash is just too inconvenient It might be inconvenient for some things (e.g., online purchases, buying houses or cars), but buying something at the store has worked very well for centuries; it's quick and easy. People on HN can't figure out cash? Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.

decafninja 5y ago
When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Negative side effects of using cash also include having to carry a bulging wallet when I'm constantly trying to minimize the stuff I have to carry. Side effects of using credit card is that all my transactions are tracked, but the side effect of that side effect is that I know exactly what I'm spending where. And no, I'd rather not do a manual bookkeeping routine, which is what I'd have to do if I used cash. Yes, there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. Maybe there is some far off scenario in the future where it can be used against me, but I view worrying about that remote possibility as premature optimization. I have far greater things to worry about. I understand the benefits of using cash even if I don't find those benefits valuable for myself personally. But I don't understand how someone can find using cash more convenient than swiping a credit card.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. > If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. > there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
  - decafninja 5y ago
    > Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. In my ultraslim card wallet, where other than my driver's license, it is the only occupant. Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. She carries a purse, so it is less of an issue for her. Plus these days, especially when I'm not driving, I find myself not even carrying that wallet - just my phone, via which I can pay via Apple Pay. Doesn't cover every single payment scenario, but it does cover enough - and increasingly, more. > What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people? See my comment earlier about premature optimization. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in China or some other authoritarian country, but as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. Why the need for hyperbole? Plenty of people have used cash for generations without enormous wallets; there just isn't that much volume to some cash. It's not that hard to use. >> What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people? > as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future. There might be more going on in the US than you think. Look at what happens to immigrants, Muslims (esp. during the GWOT), people who challenge government authority, political opposition, etc. The prior president actively solicted intelligence on political opposition and repeatedly threatened to jail them. Today, here's an article I just read: https://www.justsecurity.org/80813/mayorkas-must-rein-in-homeland-security-investigations/ https://www.justsecurity.org/80813/mayorkas-must-rein-in-hom... If we give the tools of oppression to government, and they start using them, how will you stop them? What will stop them?
JohnTHaller 5y ago
A large portion of the folks I know in their 20s in NYC don't even carry cash anymore unless there's a specific need for it on a given day (taking a class that's taught by an individual who takes cash, for example). Why worry about a bunch of pieces of paper or round metal discs when everything is a tap of your watch or phone away? I don't even use my metrocard anymore since the subway started using tap to pay.
irrational 5y ago
I’m over 50. I can figure out cash. But I hate cash. I hate carrying it around. I hate having to go to an ATM to get more. I hate counting cash and getting change. I hate that there isn’t a digital record of what I purchased and when. I’ve avoided using cash for more years than I can remember. Bring on the cashless society.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > hate Such intensity!
  - irrational 5y ago
    Sorry, how about "passionately despise"?
hluska 5y ago
I’m not an expert in this area and this is based mostly upon memory. But I’m of an age where I remember the introduction of ATMs into my communities. Cash used to be cheaper, even if you took it out of a different bank’s machine. Nowadays, I pay more than $5 on any withdrawal from a machine that isn’t affiliated with my bank. I live in a small city with around 200,000 people. I’m only aware of seven machines in my city that are affiliated with my bank. So, if I decide to get cash, I have to decide in advance. Or I’m at risk of paying 5% to get my own $100 out of my bank. Or, I can pay with a card for $0 for unlimited transactions. When I look at that cost attached to cash, I’m reminded of research about how spending digital doesn’t impact people the same way as spending cash. At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, do you think this might be a marketing campaign? Obviously I don’t know, but if I knew people spent more on cards than with cash, and if consumer debt made me rich, I’d do everything I could to convince people to use cards. Edit - I think this is the first time I’ve ever gone on a “when I was young, things were cheaper and better” rant. Aging beats the alternative but that’s the only good thing about it. :)
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > I’m at risk of paying 5% to get my own $100 out of my bank. Or, I can pay with a card for $0 for unlimited transactions. But isn't that actually pretty comparable? You don't see the few percent extra you're paying with the credit card because it gets hidden in the price. It's probably not all that different than what you're paying to get cash from an out-of-network ATM (I just get cash back at POS). To be fair, usually the cash buyer also gets screwed into paying for the convenience of everyone else using credit cards. For a while that was actually written into the merchant agreement, to favor credit card usage and ensure hefty profits for Visa & MC.
  - aix1 5y ago
    This analysis ignores the cost to the merchant of handling cash. I don't know how high it is. I've seen various numbers thrown around but it's hard to tell what's accurate and what's not. What is clear, however, is that the cost is non-zero.
SllX 5y ago
> People on HN can't figure out cash? > > Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience. Why not? I’ve worked in jobs in my life where I dealt with cash, had to count a register down to the last coin, check receipts, do cash runs to a bank and give the correct change. I even received cash tips. I choose not to use cash because it would require me to go out of my way to an ATM and use it, then keep track of the amount of cash I have on me and make subsequent trips to the ATM as necessary. I could, and I used to do that, but it’s not something I did because I enjoyed my trips to the ATM. I did it so I could get a medium of exchange for my daily necessities, and now I don’t do that.
- rob74 5y ago
  You don't usually have to make an extra "trip to the ATM" to get cash, you can combine it with shopping or other errands. In Germany many supermarket chains now even have a "withdraw cash for free when you pay with your card" service, which is very convenient. And "keeping track of the amount of cash you have" is simply looking into your wallet when buying something and seeing that you only have one or two small-ish bills left in there. I agree though that cash handling is more of a hassle for the ones accepting cash than for the ones paying with it, and that's probably one of the drivers in getting rid of it...
  - diffeomorphism 5y ago
    > smallish bills That works in Germany but not in the US. Euro bills are easy to distinguish by color and size and start at 5. With dollars you have a stack of greenish paper, many of which are $1 bills. Manageable, but definitely more inconvenient than Euros.
  - yardstick 5y ago
    > In Germany many supermarket chains now even have a "withdraw cash for free when you pay with your card" service, which is very convenient. They do this in lots of other countries too (UK, AU, NZ to name a few). Doesn’t work for me anymore as I shop online, including groceries.
  - rblatz 5y ago
xboxnolifes 5y ago
> People on HN can't figure out cash? > Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience. I feel like using the phase "figure out" and then saying it's not about convenience is directly contradictory. I can't think of any way where handing someone my plastic index card, swiping it through a machine, and returning it is ever less convenient than shuffling through cash, counting it, handing It over, having the other person count it, calculate change, count change, and hand over various paper bills and coins that I don't want to be carrying.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  But it's just not that hard to use cash, no matter how long you make the sentence. I've asked a few people: what interest do people have in pushing so hard against it? Does everyone here work for Stripe?
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    Cards have existed long before stripe. Convenience isn't about "hard" vs "not hard". It's "more convenient" vs "less convenient". And as I just laid out, the only scenario I can think that cash is more convenient is when power/internet is not available. I carry some cash, but the only times I ever use it is for tipping and vending machines.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      Look at the intensity and exaggeration in the comments on this forum. People feel very strongly about it and push hard!
acjohnson55 5y ago
Cash sucks. I pretty much stopped using it in the late 2000s. Then, I moved to NYC in 2010, and at that time, it was common for places to be cash only or add surcharges to card payments. I had to re-adapt to cash-based living, and I was not a fan. Finding a bank that did ATM fee refunds helped a lot, but it was still much more of a pain than simply using plastic.
headsoup 5y ago
It is absolutely convenience. It is most of the reason people continue to willingly hand over their privacy and autonomy. And, the key bit is ensuring it's a short term equation, so people don't evaluate the long term risk or implications. People just never consider that they might be in a future situation where their convenience choices could be used against them in a troubling way. And they just plain don't care (as evident in the comments here) about those it impacts negatively now
theshrike79 5y ago
How is paying $14.53 at the register "quick and easy" with cash? Do you just shove a $20 to the cashier and go "keep the change"? Or do you start to dig around for that elusive 5c coin from the bottom of your wallet? In not-US I can just shove my watch/phone/card at the reader and it's done. Exact change, no fuss.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > How is paying $14.53 at the register "quick and easy" with cash? Try it - it takes a minute. Really! I've never seen so many people become suddenly incompetent.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    Why would I spend a minute when I can do it in under 5 seconds?
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      There are many reasons discussed here, but the point is that cash is mindlessly easy to use, as it has been for generations.
diffeomorphism 5y ago
Change is inconvenient, yes. Both for the store (keeping a stock of coins etc.) and for customers. Even more so in the US, which optimizes for pre-tax 9.99, so 10+whatever after tax. Also "cashback" on credit cards but rarely discount for cash (I have only seen that at restaurants).
msla 5y ago
> Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience. Someone might very well kill me for my cash. Or, possibly, threaten to kill me for my cash, and actually kill me so I couldn't identify them later. If they see I don't have cash, the odds of that might well go down. Worth a shot.

rland 5y ago

I trust the physical impossibility of tracking cash over the hypothetical enforcement of legislation any day. Why risk it? How many employers have used data on candidate salaries in violation of the law in California? How would we ever know? There are many benefits of using cash: it's very secure, as long as I'm sensible. It's anonymous. It costs those that I do business with less to maintain (Visa charges 2%. 2 percent! of revenue!). People who I tip like me more because I tip in cash. Businesses I do business with like me more because I give them cash. Not to mention, I can do business with anyone I want if I deal with cash -- not so with electronic services. Look to the case of Germany for why cash is so important.

Aurelius3 5y ago

Once you give your data away no regulation can keep it safe, it is already compromised the second it is given.