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So,what happens when the following get ahold of your data: Health insurance companies start buying your purchasing info and decide to up your premiums due to t

So,what happens when the following get ahold of your data: Health insurance companies start buying your purchasing info and decide to up your premiums due to the amount of alcohol you buy, fast food you purchase, or your grocery shopping habits? Do you eat too much red meat, too many carbs, not enough greens? Is your sugar intake put you at a higher risk for diabetes? How may cigars/cigarettes are you smoking? What about marijuana use, or over the counter drugs? Home owners insurance: What if your shopping data shows risky patterns or behaviors - do you or spouse buy too many candles, is your home at a greater risk for fire hazard? Law Enforcement: How much ammo do you purchase? Are you frequently buying guns? Are you an active shooter risk? Are you spending too much at strip clubs? Are you spending too much money in high risk neighborhoods? Obviously these are all just examples, but don't think for a second that they don't already have most of this data, and can brainstorm many other use cases for it, honestly we are just living on borrow time at the moment before it gets unbearable.

themacguffinman 5y ago
Then you vote to ban insurance discrimination on certain kinds of data. In California, for example, employers are forbidden to ask or use data on candidate salaries in their hiring process. In the US, health insurance companies are forbidden from discriminating based on pre-existing conditions. A huge amount of middle and upper class people already voluntarily use cashless methods to spend & earn money. A huge amount of businesses are basically online-only and don't really support cash payments. Visa & Mastercard etc already engage in data sharing. Cash is just too inconvenient and will slowly recede over time, if you want to avoid discriminatory outcomes then advocate for legislation directly.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > Cash is just too inconvenient It might be inconvenient for some things (e.g., online purchases, buying houses or cars), but buying something at the store has worked very well for centuries; it's quick and easy. People on HN can't figure out cash? Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.
  - decafninja 5y ago
    When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Negative side effects of using cash also include having to carry a bulging wallet when I'm constantly trying to minimize the stuff I have to carry. Side effects of using credit card is that all my transactions are tracked, but the side effect of that side effect is that I know exactly what I'm spending where. And no, I'd rather not do a manual bookkeeping routine, which is what I'd have to do if I used cash. Yes, there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. Maybe there is some far off scenario in the future where it can be used against me, but I view worrying about that remote possibility as premature optimization. I have far greater things to worry about. I understand the benefits of using cash even if I don't find those benefits valuable for myself personally. But I don't understand how someone can find using cash more convenient than swiping a credit card.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. > If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. > there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
      - decafninja 5y ago
        > Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. In my ultraslim card wallet, where other than my driver's license, it is the only occupant. Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. She carries a purse, so it is less of an issue for her. Plus these days, especially when I'm not driving, I find myself not even carrying that wallet - just my phone, via which I can pay via Apple Pay. Doesn't cover every single payment scenario, but it does cover enough - and increasingly, more. > What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people? See my comment earlier about premature optimization. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in China or some other authoritarian country, but as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future.
- rland 5y ago
  I trust the physical impossibility of tracking cash over the hypothetical enforcement of legislation any day. Why risk it? How many employers have used data on candidate salaries in violation of the law in California? How would we ever know? There are many benefits of using cash: it's very secure, as long as I'm sensible. It's anonymous. It costs those that I do business with less to maintain (Visa charges 2%. 2 percent! of revenue!). People who I tip like me more because I tip in cash. Businesses I do business with like me more because I give them cash. Not to mention, I can do business with anyone I want if I deal with cash -- not so with electronic services. Look to the case of Germany for why cash is so important.
- Aurelius3 5y ago
  Once you give your data away no regulation can keep it safe, it is already compromised the second it is given.
jedberg 5y ago
I'm not too worried. I live in California, and our regulators would block most of what you suggest. They already do for insurance -- they block insurance companies from a lot of data that they consider discriminatory. The moment a politician was affected by this data collection in a negative way, it would probably become illegal. Hell, it's illegally nationally to share someone's video rental history because a politician got screwed out of being a Supreme Court justice when their video rental history was released.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Your purchase history is being sold to companies outside California jurisdiction. Aside from video rentals, all of your consumer data is fair game for middlemen to peddle amongst themselves and build a profile about you. They lobby to keep it that way.
tamrix 5y ago
As odd as it sounds. The ones that seek safety and protection from authority would actually enjoy your suggestion and actively. If you ask why, they'll say it's for the 'greater good' . They actually want it to happen. As it forms a new social hierarchy of obidence which may, one day, outrank the social hiarchy of evil capitalism. In fact, they'll go as far as discrediting and attacking you for even suggesting what you said. As that's against the greater good (saving environment, war efforts, meat is bad, etc) and ironically, attacking demonstrates true obedience.
brianwawok 5y ago
Right I’m not worried about any of this. I guess if I did more illegal activities maybe I would care?
- voakbasda 5y ago
  You would start to care when they pass new laws that criminalize past behaviors that were once legal.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    Not sure where you are, but at least in the US you can’t be prosecuted for things that happened before the law was passed.
    - voakbasda 5y ago
      You definitely can be persecuted and put on watch list. You could be visited to ensure your compliance. You can be intimidated and coerced. And the US government sure as heck has a long record of such tactics.
    - 8note 5y ago
      Texas is pushing the borders on that with its abortion laws. If abortion suddenly stops being federally legal, every Texan who has an abortion after the current law will be prosecuted for it
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pedalpete 5y ago
I don't think cash is the answer to these issues, unless you are ONLY using cash. The way you're describing it is a system which is specifically geared to looking at individual purchases rather than more general behavior, which is how I suspect the models these companies use now, and will use in the future work. There is so much data about us in the world (unless you actively try to hide your behavior, which also leaves a different kind of fingerprint) that the behaviors you describe, or risk you present, is discoverable through other means. But looking at each of the examples you give * Health Insurance - uuhhh.... well, I don't live in America, the rest of the developed world has pretty much got this figured out. But..where you live, how much you make, how often you change jobs, all these kinds of metrics feed into the rudimentary understanding of health. Also, don't health insurance companies ask if you smoke? * Home Insurance - I think the above applies to all insurance. If you buy more candles, are you really more of a risk? Or if you have other risky behaviors? Candles could definitely be a false positive. It doesn't matter if I have thousands of candles, a careless person with 1 candle could be more dangerous. * Law Enforcement - I think this one shows the flaw in your thinking. If I'm buying "too much ammo", is that because I'm using so much at a shooting range? Doesn't an a risky shooter (like someone about to pull of a mass shooting...again...an American thing...the rest of the world have figured this part out...) only use like 100 more bullets in their shooting? How much time is that at a shooting range. So yes, these are just examples, and like you said, most of this data is already available without having your purchase information. Now, I'm also cautious about where my purchase info goes, or as cautious as I can be, but this is the world we live in. I don't think we can put the genie back into the bottle, but I think it's important we don't just burry our heads in the sand and not understand how much information is available about us.
steve_taylor 5y ago
This sounds so bizarre to those of us in countries with universal healthcare, tight gun control, and much less authoritarianism.
walnutclosefarm 5y ago
There is no mechanism, since the passage of the affordable care act, for health insurers to raise premiums on individuals. Plans have a set price, which is the same for everyone within a specific jurisdiction.
Spivak 5y ago
> Health insurance companies start buying your purchasing info and decide to up your premiums due to the amount of alcohol you buy … I always find this argument funny because you’re mad that insurance companies are more accurately pricing your risk. Like isn’t as insurance company with perfect information the ideal? Would you be happy if an insurance company saw your yoga class, Soylent, and no bills from bars or smoke shops and charged you way less? Like how dare these evil corporations charge me accurately for my activities that negatively affect my health that I have been up to now paying less than my real risk profile would afford.
- ajb 5y ago
  An insurance company with perfect information would actually be useless. The point of insurance is to spread risk; perfect information means no spreading of risk.

themacguffinman 5y ago

Then you vote to ban insurance discrimination on certain kinds of data. In California, for example, employers are forbidden to ask or use data on candidate salaries in their hiring process. In the US, health insurance companies are forbidden from discriminating based on pre-existing conditions. A huge amount of middle and upper class people already voluntarily use cashless methods to spend & earn money. A huge amount of businesses are basically online-only and don't really support cash payments. Visa & Mastercard etc already engage in data sharing. Cash is just too inconvenient and will slowly recede over time, if you want to avoid discriminatory outcomes then advocate for legislation directly.

wolverine876 5y ago
> Cash is just too inconvenient It might be inconvenient for some things (e.g., online purchases, buying houses or cars), but buying something at the store has worked very well for centuries; it's quick and easy. People on HN can't figure out cash? Whatever is going on, it's not about convenience.
- decafninja 5y ago
  When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Negative side effects of using cash also include having to carry a bulging wallet when I'm constantly trying to minimize the stuff I have to carry. Side effects of using credit card is that all my transactions are tracked, but the side effect of that side effect is that I know exactly what I'm spending where. And no, I'd rather not do a manual bookkeeping routine, which is what I'd have to do if I used cash. Yes, there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. Maybe there is some far off scenario in the future where it can be used against me, but I view worrying about that remote possibility as premature optimization. I have far greater things to worry about. I understand the benefits of using cash even if I don't find those benefits valuable for myself personally. But I don't understand how someone can find using cash more convenient than swiping a credit card.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > When I used cash to buy something at the store, I have to take out my wallet, count the appropriate amount of cash, wait for the cashier to give back any change, confirm I got the right amount back. If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. > If I use a credit card, I just insert a piece of plastic into a slot, and we're done. It's more convenient. Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. > there is the side effect that third party entities might also know what my transactions are, but I simply don't care. What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people?
    - decafninja 5y ago
      > Where do you keep your credit card, in your hand at all times? How long does the cash exchange take? Moments, in my experience. In my ultraslim card wallet, where other than my driver's license, it is the only occupant. Meanwhile my wife, who loves carrying/using cash, has a wallet that is enormous. She carries a purse, so it is less of an issue for her. Plus these days, especially when I'm not driving, I find myself not even carrying that wallet - just my phone, via which I can pay via Apple Pay. Doesn't cover every single payment scenario, but it does cover enough - and increasingly, more. > What if they use it to control your society and oppress other people? See my comment earlier about premature optimization. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in China or some other authoritarian country, but as it stands today in the United States, I am not worried about this at all, nor in the foreseeable future.
rland 5y ago
I trust the physical impossibility of tracking cash over the hypothetical enforcement of legislation any day. Why risk it? How many employers have used data on candidate salaries in violation of the law in California? How would we ever know? There are many benefits of using cash: it's very secure, as long as I'm sensible. It's anonymous. It costs those that I do business with less to maintain (Visa charges 2%. 2 percent! of revenue!). People who I tip like me more because I tip in cash. Businesses I do business with like me more because I give them cash. Not to mention, I can do business with anyone I want if I deal with cash -- not so with electronic services. Look to the case of Germany for why cash is so important.
Aurelius3 5y ago
Once you give your data away no regulation can keep it safe, it is already compromised the second it is given.

jedberg 5y ago

I'm not too worried. I live in California, and our regulators would block most of what you suggest. They already do for insurance -- they block insurance companies from a lot of data that they consider discriminatory. The moment a politician was affected by this data collection in a negative way, it would probably become illegal. Hell, it's illegally nationally to share someone's video rental history because a politician got screwed out of being a Supreme Court justice when their video rental history was released.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Your purchase history is being sold to companies outside California jurisdiction. Aside from video rentals, all of your consumer data is fair game for middlemen to peddle amongst themselves and build a profile about you. They lobby to keep it that way.

tamrix 5y ago

As odd as it sounds. The ones that seek safety and protection from authority would actually enjoy your suggestion and actively. If you ask why, they'll say it's for the 'greater good' . They actually want it to happen. As it forms a new social hierarchy of obidence which may, one day, outrank the social hiarchy of evil capitalism. In fact, they'll go as far as discrediting and attacking you for even suggesting what you said. As that's against the greater good (saving environment, war efforts, meat is bad, etc) and ironically, attacking demonstrates true obedience.

brianwawok 5y ago

Right I’m not worried about any of this. I guess if I did more illegal activities maybe I would care?

voakbasda 5y ago
You would start to care when they pass new laws that criminalize past behaviors that were once legal.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  Not sure where you are, but at least in the US you can’t be prosecuted for things that happened before the law was passed.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    You definitely can be persecuted and put on watch list. You could be visited to ensure your compliance. You can be intimidated and coerced. And the US government sure as heck has a long record of such tactics.
  - 8note 5y ago
    Texas is pushing the borders on that with its abortion laws. If abortion suddenly stops being federally legal, every Texan who has an abortion after the current law will be prosecuted for it

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pedalpete 5y ago

I don't think cash is the answer to these issues, unless you are ONLY using cash. The way you're describing it is a system which is specifically geared to looking at individual purchases rather than more general behavior, which is how I suspect the models these companies use now, and will use in the future work. There is so much data about us in the world (unless you actively try to hide your behavior, which also leaves a different kind of fingerprint) that the behaviors you describe, or risk you present, is discoverable through other means. But looking at each of the examples you give * Health Insurance - uuhhh.... well, I don't live in America, the rest of the developed world has pretty much got this figured out. But..where you live, how much you make, how often you change jobs, all these kinds of metrics feed into the rudimentary understanding of health. Also, don't health insurance companies ask if you smoke? * Home Insurance - I think the above applies to all insurance. If you buy more candles, are you really more of a risk? Or if you have other risky behaviors? Candles could definitely be a false positive. It doesn't matter if I have thousands of candles, a careless person with 1 candle could be more dangerous. * Law Enforcement - I think this one shows the flaw in your thinking. If I'm buying "too much ammo", is that because I'm using so much at a shooting range? Doesn't an a risky shooter (like someone about to pull of a mass shooting...again...an American thing...the rest of the world have figured this part out...) only use like 100 more bullets in their shooting? How much time is that at a shooting range. So yes, these are just examples, and like you said, most of this data is already available without having your purchase information. Now, I'm also cautious about where my purchase info goes, or as cautious as I can be, but this is the world we live in. I don't think we can put the genie back into the bottle, but I think it's important we don't just burry our heads in the sand and not understand how much information is available about us.

steve_taylor 5y ago

This sounds so bizarre to those of us in countries with universal healthcare, tight gun control, and much less authoritarianism.

walnutclosefarm 5y ago

There is no mechanism, since the passage of the affordable care act, for health insurers to raise premiums on individuals. Plans have a set price, which is the same for everyone within a specific jurisdiction.

Spivak 5y ago

> Health insurance companies start buying your purchasing info and decide to up your premiums due to the amount of alcohol you buy … I always find this argument funny because you’re mad that insurance companies are more accurately pricing your risk. Like isn’t as insurance company with perfect information the ideal? Would you be happy if an insurance company saw your yoga class, Soylent, and no bills from bars or smoke shops and charged you way less? Like how dare these evil corporations charge me accurately for my activities that negatively affect my health that I have been up to now paying less than my real risk profile would afford.

ajb 5y ago
An insurance company with perfect information would actually be useless. The point of insurance is to spread risk; perfect information means no spreading of risk.